Eric M. Buckman
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Posts posted by Eric M. Buckman
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4 minutes ago, skevinp said:
This is the most amazing top 4 i've ever seen.
Wait...what??? Ummm, no. this is good, but not nearly the best top 4 in DCI history. Must be young. LOL
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Scores tonight mean little in overall scheme...I don't believe one of these judges will be at Finals.
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This is rich...the gap closed 0.01 in 6 days.
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That could have been said about 1985, no? The demand of the show was so much higher than anyone else, it raised the bar for adjudication. And we still talk about that show today. Cadets were not the cleanest in 85, but it was INSANELY difficult. While, true it may have fallen out of favor, up tempo endings, for a variety of reasons, how do the CADETS identify themselves, in such a narrowing idiom that has been simply robbing from each other? The activity is a bit vanilla in many ways. With now the talk is, how DCI is defined by WGI, when it used to be vis a vis.
While there is a lot to be said about tradition and what each Corps is competent in. Movement defines the Cadets. I would rather see them fail while remaining true to this capacity than become mediocre vanilla and unremarkable, or even out of minds eye. The Cadet/Cipriani sound is in Boston (can't deny that) , the Guard is definitely back and doing amazing. Drums will be what they will be, in the mix. But, pushing the boundaries of drill design and innovation for the activity is a must for keeping Cadets relevant, otherwise why go? So the run-and-gun is back. But, it had better be special. Not so sure this season, has "tons of exceptional fan memories" to be taken away that will make you think about the era 25 years later. Some of the most entertaining aspects of the current era, happen, In the LOT!
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Three words not forget this season.
Santa Clara Vanguard.
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On 7/9/2023 at 11:30 PM, Restless said:
And BD won brass last year by playing the least amount of minutes out of literally everyone. Maybe you can crank the numbers on that one next?
LOL, if you plan on challenging someone, then please make sure you A. do your homework, B. research it for yourself. so...
DEVS 2022
INTRO 1:43 seconds of Battery
1:43 Brass enters till 2:47. That would be nearly 1 Minute of Brass again the majority of the Crops
Drums are in at 2:47 until the Solo Alto Trumpet at 3:19 Only 30 seconds of Battery
at 3:30 seconds Brass enters with Low/Moderate demand drill.
Low Brass enters around 3:30 and then Upper and Mid voices around 3:48
But that is 3:19 till 4:11 when dress again are in and brass out. that is almost a full minute.
from 4:11 till 4:20. 9 seconds of drums
then brass is back in at 4:20 till 4:51 seconds when Narrative begins for roughly 20 seconds
at 5:10 Back Field Pit and Brass, then Front Field Duet of Moon River with Full Hornline
till 7:14 Ovation from the crowd... that is nearly 2 minutes of Brass interaction
7:14 Backfield Moon River MM Low demand
7:43 Narrative Battery Drum Feature Body Movement by Brass till
9:13. so yeah almost 1:30 of Drum Feature
9:13 Brass enters Lor/Moderate Demand drill
till: 10:43 Pit
11:07 Brass til Full Corps till ending at 12:02 roughly.
So, you might want to rethink your statement about their playing the least amount. And they do it quite well when they do it. The vehicle they have relative to their performance strategy is also completely different, but they play and complete MM in traditional Devils format. not in 30 seconds snippets for the largest membership with, so I stand by my argument. Devs may not have the highest of demand drills, but the Color Guard is spot on the Battery is in the game and does their part more than adequately and is always in the hunt for a Drum Title. And their BRASS play and play quite well, regularly within the context of the show. out of their 12 minute performance, there is about only 3 minutes of pure drums, which cannot be said for this years Cadets iteration, which was my point about how little the Brass plays, and the amount of Body Movement there is without any voice from the Brass...you simply cannot do well if the single largest section of the corps is not doing what they are intended. Might as well hide the color guard the entire show and feature them for 3 minutes.
There are too large of chasms when Cadets Brass does. not participate in the over all arching them of Marching Music...you can dance all you want, but that has nothing to do with scores...you don't get points for simply body movement. And yes, that would mean the judging still embodies 1994 era. Oh by the way, 6th place Madison 1994 put on the field exactly as it was, would probably out fair current 6th place in 2023...LOL
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This is a lovely show overall, my challenge is this.
The entirety of the Corps is seemingly unbalance relative to the show. Some years the focus may be color guard driven visually. Some years it may be Battery. But, those all have to have a foundational aspect that the Brass has to be relevant and present throughout, to tie everything together.
This show will place exactly where it is is supposed, as there is very low demand from the largest contributors relative to the production. The Brass. The Colorguard and Battery hold their own within the construct of the design.
The Cadets have been long known for marching and maneuvering while playing...and that simply doesn't hold up this year.
General Synopsis of Timeline
The entirety of the 13 minute production compromises the following
The Battery entrance 1:12 seconds long
Brass enters and plays for ~30 seconds
Brass Movement for another 31 seconds without playing
Brass stands and plays another 24 second during Triple Tonging Feature
Low Demand Drill 16 seconds
Stop and play 10 seconds
Drums 44 seconds
Solo Ballad 36 seconds with Low Brass and small Hornlike contribution
Duet 1:03 seconds into full hornline.
Full Hornline Low Demand 26 seconds
Battery FEATURE 46 seconds. Brass More Movement No playing
Brass Enters 1:19 second low demand drill
Brass Enters Moderate demand 30 seconds
Pit feature Drum Set Brass Movement No play 45 seconds
Baritone Feature 26 seconds
FULL HORNLINE 18 seconds
Stand And Play 20 seconds
FINALE 1:42 of Low/Moderate demand Marching and playing by Brass.
While this can be described as a wonderfully delightful Cadets show, from the perspective of what the largest group has to offer the Brass, shorts and all, it is a low demand show. Which means that the guard and battery have to excel beyond belief to make up for everything else. Even if the Brass is flawless musically, the demand isn't really there, otherwise.
Cadets have always been the outliers, it is why no one ever uses them to explain demand within the context of the Drum Corps idiom, as they have always had one of the higher demands on M/M, historically(while playing). This show is a definite departure from that, nothing bad, but simply a departure from what, I like many have grown accustomed to since 1982. IMO
But, it 'tis a very nice show. Keep cleaning, have fun. And remember Placements/scores don't matter. Will this show live on, 10, 20, 30 years from now, will it be talked about, regardless of placement? That is yet to be seen, and that seemingly is what Cadets have done for the last 40+ years.
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Since I can't hide behind a weird moniker for my profile name, I have one simple thought. The Holy Name Cadets, Garfield Cadets, Cadets of Bergen Country, O Holy Name, even into The Cadets all have a rich tradition of Innovation. The question that seems to perplex me, is one revolving around either being an organization, that pushed boundaries and exploration of this idiom we so adore. Today I even noted that Crown is pushing 210 bpm...my heart sank and I thought "what", then I thought good for them, they have continued to be innovate leaders and one of the best in the business for years now. With all the "issues" surrounding the Cadets in recent years, my simple thought is they need to get out of survival mode and get back to innovation. Even in the Erie move, that is right down the street form the other Blue crew, that has completely changed the game in DCI, for the benefit of everyone. What happened to the old Cadet saying..."First we zigged...ZAG!" it seems that current strategies for success in today's world of DCI revolves around Innovation, you cannot remain reactive in this game nor can you solely rely on TRADITION, let me repeat. You cannot rely on tradition, alone. Devils are so far removed from what we know of them in the 80's and 90's and yet they remain the best at innovation and putting the one of the best products on the field of competition. Can the Cadets do the same, or will they simply succumb to the idea of mediocrity and just somewhat complacency, by design...they need to find more of ...
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Well Said...
Upswing from what? SCV's "Inventions for a New Millennium", one of the greatest shows ever, was just three years earlier. In the interim there had been such classics as Cadets' "We Are the Future" and "Juxtaperformance", Blue Devils' "Methods of Madness", and SCV's "New Era Metropolis". (I expect others might name Cavaliers' "Niagra Falls" or SCV's "Age of Reverence", as well.) And that's just looking at the highest-scoring shows; there were gems in the lower placements as well.(Colts' "Voices" in 1999, as hostrauser has repeatedly noted, is probably the best 12th-place show ever.) For myself, I think the music of "Frameworks" is pretty dull, and haven't listened to it on CD in some years. I agree that it's a visual masterpiece, and beautifully executed. But rather than this show (or "Four Corners", which I enjoy even less), I'd much rather watch, or hear, a third-place Cavaliers show, "Classical Innovations" (1999 again -- it was a good year), or what I consider to be the peak of total design for the Cavaliers, "Spin City", in 2003 (the only totally original corps score to approach the loveliness of Suncoast Sound's "Florida Suite", though it's totally different in style) and "007" in 2004.
I'm confused. By your account, the rules made DCI more like scholastic marching bands, and further rule changes (what did you have in mind, by the way?) apparently would make DCI more like other activities familiar to people outside the activity. Why would anyone want DCI's copy of something else? And in what sense would DCI "push the envelope", as you go on to demand, by changing to become more like something else?
But how much weight should we grant to the opinions of someone who's liked no Cadets show except "The Zone"? I actually enjoy much of that show, although not particularly the aspects that were enabled by amplification. (That's what you're referring to, right? The "drum-speak", which is OK as a one-off stunt but isn't as crisp as it should be. The "Bjork-speak", which is mystifying if you haven't seen the relevant clip from Dancer in the Dark -- and once you have, you realize how badly it's done. Perhaps the opening narration, but that's lazily enunciated. And the whistling, which is well done, but as an effect, I prefer the Cavaliers whistling in 2004. All made possible by one change, not "numerous" changes, to the rules.) But, score notwithstanding, if there aren't at least another dozen Cadets shows you enjoy, I begin to wonder if you really enjoy drum corps at all. Just in the past ten years, "Angels and Demons" and "Our Favorite Things" were first rate (many people would add "West Side Story: Celebration and Conflict" to that list, but like most 2009 shows and more than a few from 2010-12, I find the overused bass synth very annoying), "12.25" was highly enjoyable and "Toy Souldier" nearly every bit as much so, if you just don't look at Li'l Geoffrey. "Living with he Past" is certainly not unpleasant. The three recent Cadets shows that have the most detractors, from 2006-2008, come in for criticism primarily because of effects generated as per the rule changes you praise! And I haven't even listed all the great Cadets' shows from the 1990's and 1980's.
There was another rule change that took effect in 2009 that has certainly affected shows: electronics, i.e. synthesized sound. I would say that was a change for the worse, but your earlier comments would lead one to expect you to praise that for making drum corps less unique, thus more familiar to the non-specialist. Were it not for the flaws introduced by this change, I'd probably rank at least "The Grass Is Always Greener", "Ballet for Martha", "A Second Chance", "Into the Light", and "XtraordinarY" as modern masterpieces, and I esteem another half-dozen shows each of those years even when I wince at the synths.
Moreover, as others have mentioned, you overlooked what may be the single most popular drum corps show ever, "Spartacus", in a year that also featured a second masterpiece in "Constantly Risking Absurdity", the Cavaliers' best visual design in "Samurai", a supreme crowd-pleaser in "Finis", and two very strong second-tier performances in "3hree" and "Le Tour". Not to mention an unforgettable brass feature in "The Knockout"!
This may be the key section of your post. The first DCI show I ever saw was in 1989. These were the scores:
1 Cadets of Bergen County (93.8)
2 Madison Scouts (91.2)
3 Bluecoats (88.2)
4 Freelancers (85.9)
5 Boston Crusaders (79.6)
6 Florida Wave (78.1)
7 L'Insolite (71.7)
So what "imprinted" on me as defining DCI is Bluecoats' lush "My Funny Valentine", Scouts' enormous "Make His Praise Glorious", and the whole audience at Byers Field erupting together in a cheer at one moment in Cadets' "Les Miserables". But it obviously hasn't kept me from enjoying much of what followed, for more than 20 years, and once my tastes matured a little, I found that I could enjoy a lot of earlier drum corps as well, even when the drill was symmetrical and the pit was minimal or non-existent. (Similarly, although the first movie I ever saw was a special effects extravaganza in 1977, I grew to be able to enjoy vastly different films, and my three favorites now are a) from 1955-1962, b) in black and white, c) with no special effects, and d) in foreign languages with subtitles. But my love of Pather Panchali, A Man Escaped, and Yojimbo (not to mention some, gasp, silent films) doesn't keep me from still enjoying Star Wars! (Or to pick the top-grossing and Oscar-winning films of 2010, for a more up-to-date perspective, Toy Story 3 and The King's Speech.)
From what I've seen of BOA shows, I have difficulty believing this. Discussing "dark" shows recently, someone praised this year's Broken Arrow show, which placed second in BOA finals, so I looked it up on youtube. Though it's not wholly without interest, I was mostly bored. Maybe I'd feel differently if I saw it live? (I haven't seen the winning show, by Carmel, but I came upon video of a pair of 2012 shows on the Ohio Music Education Association circuit, by Grove City and Lakota West, that if less technologically advanced, showy, or even technically proficient, were much more enjoyable than Broken Arrow. It makes me wonder about the discrepancy in achievement I've noticed between the few bands that compete in both circuits is as much a matter of style as of quality.) This is more exciting than drum corps? (It's not of surpassing excellence: change the rules to allow woodwinds, and I would be shocked to see any scholastic marching band placing as high as 15th. That would be impressive, sure, but hardly a vanguard of the activity.) Anyway, most schools don't compete in BOA, so most marching band members aren't participating there anyway.
However, you are doing so in only the vaguest way. You don't say specifically what you like about "Frameworks" or "The Zone", beyond some "New! Shiny!" hand-waving.
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Flat out, there is a reason, why Devs were called White Noise in 88, and also, there is simply no comparison between todays Corps and G Valve Bugles...with fewer members. Anything from G era had a much more robust sound and subsequently, the corps produces much LOUDER melt your face product!
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Interesting read. I do feel that in someways we have alienated the people who probably mean the most to the activity, the Traditionalist. we are seeking newer fan base, and "losing" when we should be cultivating the former and current fan base. We have so polarized Drum Corps fan base, sure there is something there for everyone. But really, really, what Alum didn't have some type of are you kidding me moment...ala Cavies, dance, dance, dance craze, I even spoke to Cavalier Alumsn who could only put there head in their hands and shake them...but those same fans, hailed into such high regard Madison! GO MADISON! Unfortunately, you can't necessarily give the entire set of keys to one sole person as the direction of an entity. There was nothing truly wrong with drum corps, yet we intentionally broke it. G Bugle manufacturers or not! 2012 Crown, is the first and quite possibly the only Corps since the last year of G Bugles that made my face nearly melt! Thank you Matt Harloff! As far as developing a story in 11 1/2 minutes....um Michael, did you not pay any attention to what most consider the Golden Era of DCI 83-93 transition. Some of the most memorable story lines ever told in DCI were done in 11 1/2 minutes. We have seen way too many shows that are A.D.D oriented. This year is one of the few that the Top 12 corps developed truly complete shows, and even then, some of them failed miserably in MAJOR Transitions from one segment to the next and two were in the Top 6. I don't know, it is ironic we talk of to today, but even looking at that photo, just makes me wonder about the whole article...Fluff I tell you, Fluff!
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Don't be delusional about "record" numbers, there are record numbers at certain show sites, because there are fewer shows to attend and an increase in major regional sites with major corps in attendence. I don't really care at the end of the day who won, cause 10 years from now, you will remember the best shows, wherever they placed. DCI may still be around...but, this is going to end up with only 6-8 corps regionally and that's it. I actually enjoyed BD's show, but feel that Crown wasn't rewarded for their show production and demand, which really was, simply a tougher show top to bottom, and they paid for it. Rough that Beddis left, but that is probably the ultimate sticking point for Crown this year. Percussion, couldn't push them over the top, but was their achilles heel. Devs aren't the death of Drum Corps, personally, the biggest problem was getting away from their target audience to increase the marketability...just like Pepsi "Clear" or the Ferrari Dino. Interesting concepts, but ultimately bad idea!
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EXACTLY...Crazy comparisons.
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Who puts a bumper sticker on a Bentley?!
A former Devil! That's who.
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I searched the forums on the subject and didn’t find any recent discussions so I figured I’d start one. If the moderators feel this should be moved to the brass forums, please do so, but I think this is more about the naming quirks that come from our activity’s roots …
Conventional wisdom says that marching tubas pitched in the key of G are “Contras,” whereas marching tubas pitched in the key of Bb are “Tubas.” Is there a definitive answer as to why this is? Even if there is, why should it matter? Yeah, “contra” sounds cooler, but isn’t it just a voicing description, as opposed to an instrument?
Two anecdotes:
The first one happened less than a decade ago. I’m watching a DCI group (Bb hornline) with my folks. My mom turns to me and asks, “Are those large horns called ‘contras?’” I say they are, not wanting to go into the full history of G vs Bb -- especially considering this was right in the middle of performance. When I say so, this jackhole sitting in front of us turns around and goes out of his way to “correct” us, saying that only G horns can be called contras. If it wasn’t in the middle of a performance, I would’ve chewed him out, but I let it go.
The second instance was more recent. My buddy and I are at a bar the night before a DCA show. We’re chatting with a guy from another group. When he asks what we play, my buddy says we march Yamaha Bb contras. The guy “corrects” us, saying that ONLY tubas pitched in the key of G can be called “contras.” I’m too tired/buzzed to get into this debate. My buddy isn’t. He unloads on the poor guy a point-by-point argument, the gist of it being that the pitch of an instrument doesn’t determine the name. A Bb tuba is the contra voice in the brass choir, just like a G tuba is the contra voice of the brass choir. This stupid debate continues with neither side relenting.
So I now take this stupid debate from the bar to the internet. I don’t know which venue is more/less civilized, but have at it.
This is a simple answer...this falls under the the topic of "NO AMPLIFICATION REQUIRED". Listen to the 70's 80's and 90's and you will find a rich robust sound that is provided by merely 6-10 members, playing Large Bore Contrabass bugles. We have increased the number and moved to a smaller bore instrument(Tuba's) and there is simply no comparison. Sure people are lost in the "blow your face off mentality that still exists, and the quality of musicianship is the pinnacle of marching music and even other genre's, but taking nothing away from current era, the quality of instrumentation is simply unrivaled.
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Teal Sounding folding mid-tour is sad, but by definition, the ball had to have been dropped by both DCI and the Teal Sound board of directors for something like this to happen out of the blue DURING the DCI tour.
This sucks for everyone, including the show sponsors. But DCI should have been on top of this before it happened. If DCI is somehow "not" supposed to be aware of a bad financial condition of a member corps, then the DCI system is broken, and it should get out of the way of the activity before it kills it off.
Point of fact, those Teal Sound kids should have never went on tour. They should have had a chance to march somewhere else, -- in January. How many DCI age outs just had their last season of drum corps ruined?
I'm sorry, but this is low rent business organization at its finest. How many corps do we need to lose to wake up here?
Thatta boy Lee...well said. Sad! Consider not how many more corps do we need to lose, considering, how "FEW" there actually are than a mere 30 years ago!
Lee Rudnicki
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I'm just glad to see SCV being SCV. Just hasn't been that way for some time. No matter what they place...I love seeing them as they should be.
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I ammend my earlier statement...Devs are good.
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Old Schooler here with a brief review of the Walnut Show (Top 3 Corps). Warning: this review will upset some folks.....
For this reviewer, it was fitting in this 40th anniversary year of DCI for the top 3 corps this evening to be the perennial competitors for the top 3 spots when I started following this activity in 1978.
SCV - Best show I've seen from them in over a decade. Why, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways: 1) Great show concept, using Holst's The Planets. This speaks to those of us who fondly recall the corps' 1980 show, as well as many of us who attempted these selections in High School concert band. It's a perfect old school Vanguard show, at least musically. 2) Awesome horns. Most powerful Bb horn sound I've ever heard from the corps since the poor G bugle was kicked to the curb years ago. Not only loud at the punches, but loud and balanced through sustained notes. Awesome (for Bb). 3) The Drumline. Thank God the tilted snares are gone. The line throws down some very innovative beats and isn't afraid of nailing old-school duplex rolls as opposed to the more modern triplet rolls typically associated with today's higher tempos. Very solid drumline, with clean, well-exposed features for each section of the battery. The tenor line is solid! It's also nice to see a pit that isn't over-amplified to the point of distraction. 4) The drill. Watching a corps of this caliber without the field littered with crap and wheeled contraptions is a treat. The drill pictures and sets were great and worked well with the theme of the show. 5) The uniforms. Best SCV uniform yet in the Cesario era of modern uniforms. They actually LOOKED like the Vanguard for a change. Now, about those guard unis..... Several standing O's, and a big Standing O before the final notes of the show. My favorite show of the night.
Phantom Regiment - This is the show that I was really looking forward to this year. Beautiful music. What else can you say about Turandot? It's the perfect vehicle and will serve them well as the season progresses. What Phantom needs is more field exposure for their drumline. Some of their best "Marty Hurly" moments are lost as the drumline is parked behind the horn block. The horn line was the biggest disappointment for me. Way less power than the two California corps (BD and SCV). If they can up the dB level, they'll continue to grow into this show. For me, their Colorguard was the best of all. Thankfully, the Phantom Regiment has, over all these years, resisted current trends and continues with their all-female guard. It makes a huge difference and adds to their uniqueness. They work well as a unit, and thankfully aren't preening as individuals out there. Phantom will be OK. This show will continue to improve as the horns improve.
Blue Devils - Where do I start? So much individual talent........ First of all, their horn sound is huge. Like, SCV, this may be one of their best post-G Bugle horn lines ever. Now onto the show concept.....ummm....whatever. Let's start with the recorded narration that runs throughout the show: It's extremely distracting and nauseating. It takes away from the music that is happening on the field. Why would you cover up all that talent on the field with some pre-recorded garbage? The last thing I want at a drum corps show, is to be lectured, in French, about some artform. If I have to have it explained to me, while its happening, then the art isn't speaking for itself. Then there are the now-standard Blue Devil contraptions that litter the field. This year, it's hobby horse uniform racks. While other corps take parts of their uniforms OFF throughout the show, the Blue Devils put their uniforms ON during the show ("oooh, see how DIFFERENT we are?")Different, but is it better? The Blue Devils' soloists are first rate, but why must they play into a mic? Seriously? a mic? They don't need it, and it just ruins their sound. Also distracting is watching the drumset player in the pit playing the ride cymbal and then hearing the sound coming out of a speaker 25 yards away. Weird, and unnecessary. If you need more ride cymbal, then put it where it belongs; on the field with a cymbal line holding for the snare drums..... and this takes me to my biggest pet peeve; Why, of all corps, do the Blue Devils continue to write drum books without the snare line playing on ride cymbals? Maybe a cymbal line would get in the way of all the individual snare posing and soloing that goes on during the show. It's too bad, because their talent level is second to none, but it doesn't always come through in this show. I'd like to see some innovation in a marching cymbal line that holds for the ocassional ride pattern for the snares, and the Blue Devils should be the ones to do it. The squatting and pivoting in the snare line is getting old. They were the first to do it...many years ago now. Courtesy standing O after the final note, mostly in appreciation of the obvious talent and hard work the kids have put in.
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Cadets2 had their first field performance this past weekend. Everyone who has seen this group have been very impressed with how it has come together. This is due in large part by the admin of YEA and their great job and resources in getting the corps started. Blue Devils B, C and SCV Cadets are always a fantastic drum corps. All three of these drum corps have great admin and thus great drum corps.
Is the future growth of the activity through the great organizations we already have? If each drum corps started a local "feeder" corps we would have a huge increase in sustainable corps?
Discuss
So AShy!
My guess is you are going to want to go back and see what Drum Corps was about through the 30's 40's and into the 80's. I kinda doubt that this will be the "future" of the entire activity. It will actually probably only lead to the Final 6-8 corps in existence regionally throughout the US and their affiliated "feeder" entitites.
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Can't wait to hear the review...I sense there is some trepidation in "DEVS Win" LOL, I am confused. Phantom just seems to me to be a bit better right now. and SCV has a great vehicle but is where they should be. Achievement...bah humbug...LOL
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You're all wrong....... 1987 Garfield.
Can't believe that 87 Garfield wasn't mentioned within the first page...LOL! HANDS DOWN, Dissappear, and Rebuild...AWESOMe!...For hearing the Overtones SCV Phantom the Diagonal CF in 88 Superb! And just a thought when is the last time Devs ever did a CF...hahahaha. LOVE IT!
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First thought was...every single prop they have built and used in the last 5 years will be on the field in this show!
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DCI WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS SEMIFINALS
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
There are very few shows of recent years, in which I am betting will be talked about 20 years down the road. Who can hum a tune from most anything today. LOVE, what Coats have done in recent memory especially and Riffs and Revelations will probably have that type of staying power, but what else??? Name a recent year in which the Top 6 you could actually "sing" the entirety of each show start to finish...gotta go back to Mid 80's -90s for that type of affect.