weedyweidenthal
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Posts posted by weedyweidenthal
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Music of James Brown, Don Ellis, Billie Eilish, Nina Simone, and Todd Terje... I’m excited!
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13 minutes ago, WaxDCIFan said:
Isn’t it also reasonable to assume they might fall further? There are plenty of corps behind them with aspirations of grandeur.
Sure it could happen. I don’t believe it will, but we are 6 months away from the season, so I suppose time will tell.
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Just now, HockeyDad said:
Top ten? Not a reasonable critique. 16th place in 2018, 17th place in 2019. Jumps from there to top ten simply do not happen in this era. Enthusiasm and optimism are great. So is realism.
Those jumps don’t happen without changes. The biggest problem a year ago was the design... there’s a new design team this year (and personally I have much greater confidence in the new program coordinator). I’m not saying it will happen but I certainly wouldn’t be willing to say that 8 corps have to fold to make it happen either. But more importantly, there’s just no reason for the negativity that prompted this exchange. Also, in 2010 we were coming off a 15th place season and had just performed a terrible show that coincided with a rough season for the members resulting in very few vets and a huge amount of guys that had never marched in any corps prior to 2010.
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1 hour ago, HockeyDad said:
Sure, if eight corps ahead of them fold. Hey, could happen.
People were saying the same thing about us in 2010 before the show announcement. After the show announcement it got even worse. No need for the negativity. Jason has done a great job keeping everyone up to date with the progress and will offer reasonable critiques of certain areas when he does so. It sounds like things are going pretty well and knowing how dedicated Jason is to honing his skills and analyzing himself as an educator, there’s reasons to be optimistic.
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3 hours ago, FlamMan said:
When exactly does the good work start? Its been 10 years of nothing.
Your feelings on the matter have been noted... Time and time again. It’s time to move on bro. We get it... you don’t approve of the direction of the corps.
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8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
i've seen varying reports of if this happened or not. i dont care, if it helps fine. i do agree with others administration has made messes and alienated people long before last july
If people are suggesting that Dann and Chris are liars and they didn't do it, then that's just another ridiculous statement to make with no knowledge of facts. In addition to official polling conducted by the corps, in October of 2017 Chad Hanes (better known as Chadwick Michael these days), an alumnus from 2007-2008, conducted polls. He gathered email addresses from every member that was on Corps Data (which is almost 100% of members since 2009 or so since it was required for us to use the site as members and a significant amount of older alums since it's constantly encouraged to update your info on the site) and sent polls. I was harshly critical of the manner in which Chad conducted the polls in part because it looked like official communication from the drum corps. I think it was about 130 members that responded from the 2017 edition of the corps with 90% in favor of going co-ed. The further back in the membership you went, the lower the participation rate and the lower the percentage of alums voting in favor of going co-ed. Around that time the Scouts were drafting an announcement that they were allowing transgender members and Chad released an article that was critical of the organization for discrimination. I talked with Steve Powers on 10/26/17 and he informed me that they were pushing up the announcement of allowing transgender members and I expressed that I would hope that the announcement wouldn't look like it was conceding to an alumnus that had gone rogue and attempted to put a stranglehold on the corps. That same day I talked with Kent Eversmeyer (1981-1984?) and he informed me that a vote was impending on whether or not to go co-ed and that current members had polled in favor of allowing women into the corps.
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20 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
no one that matters called on Madison to change
The members don’t matter? It’s THEIR drum corps and they asked for it.
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8 hours ago, GREENBLUE said:
Totally agree. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The Madison Scouts would’ve never adopted the all inclusive, non discrimination female policy if they were consistently in the top twelve. To even place a slight blame on the “all male” aspect is ridiculous. All the females in DCI couldnt have fixed the show designs from the past few seasons.
It really doesn't matter if you say it 1 time or 100 times, you can still be wrong. The show design in recent years was below par. Most of us seem to agree on that. It held them back competitively. However, the statement you're making is not related to the competitiveness of the corps. You clearly don't know the leadership team if you make this statement. In fact, the issue of going co-ed goes back AT LEAST to my years in the corps in 2008-2011 and I would imagine it went back further considering that 2005 featured a female soloist... and so did 1971 with a few other female performers sprinkled in for exhibitions or parades between those years.
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5 hours ago, FlamMan said:
Hooters discriminates against Men!!! and The Rockettes too!!!
Yes, they do. And that's ok.
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8 hours ago, tesmusic said:
Are you then saying, that by design any organization that has parameters is discriminatory policies? Honest question here, did you participate in Greek life in college? I did not, but would then say that the whole fraternity/sorority concept is discriminatory? Is DCI discriminatory due to their age limits? I actually have zero issue with the corps going coed, but the notion that for 81 The corps was discriminatory, which seems to be something you may believe by stating that being all-male was discriminatory seems like a stretch to me.
I did not participate in Greek life, but I am a member of the freemasons... an organization that does discriminate against women. What you are suggesting is that some forms of discrimination are ok. I agree with that statement, but where the disconnect exists here is with the discomfort of the word "discrimination." Just like any aspect of any decision in life, you should weigh pros and cons and make a decision. In this particular instance, the issue of discrimination against women was weighed on many levels. One of the ways it was evaluated was among the directors and another was with the members themselves who felt like women should be included in the drum corps. This is the current member's drum corps of which they should take ownership. My time is past, just like most of the people commenting on this. The current members and the current directors came to a conclusion that discrimination based on gender wasn't acceptable for them.
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2 minutes ago, Mello Dude said:
Right. Because what I have said is just so awful. Being offended at everyone that lives in reality is more pathetic one would think. Frankly, the fact you are so defensive about everything confirms my fears and suspicions even more. Human nature and all that.
Yes, I would say that making the claim that the Scouts were looking to put a female drum major in place to make a statement is a terrible thing to say when you consider that it discredits the abilities of those young women to effectively do their job within the corps. Yes, I'm defensive about these kids because I want to see them have a positive experience and walk out of this as better people for having done so and your posts are detrimental to that cause. You also clearly don't know what Dann is all about and the importance that he places on having a positive impact on these young adults. No, I'm not at all offended. I'm disappointed that someone could be so adamantly wrong about something and not realize the negative consequences of your words.
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8 minutes ago, HockeyDad said:
I think this counts as real information:
2019 - 17th place
2018 - 16th place
2017 - 12th place (!)
2016 - 13th place
I boldly claim not being coed had nothing to do with this recent placement record. I will further claim the move to coed was motivated by the need to *do something* to attempt to distract attention from Chris and Dann’s performance, which is unacceptable (my opinion). “Discriminatory” is just the B.S. bow they wrapped it in. The all male membership was no more discriminatory than all brass is for DCI.
I don’t think anybody involved in the organization is pleased with the competitive results, but that is a different discussion (that is certainly worth having) from what is being spouted here.
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2 minutes ago, Mello Dude said:
Please. What I said was spot on. It almost like they are running for DCI political office if such a thing existed. I just hope they get better and not just get points for being coed. Time will tell when we see what they put on the field.
Nah, you’re dead wrong but you don’t want to actually get facts and discover that to be true. You want to hide behind a screen name speculating about a youth activity and make statements like this that are detrimental to the organization because you enjoy the controversy... otherwise, you would seek first hand information. What a pathetic way to live.
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For what it's worth, I was in favor of the corps staying all-male. I'm still coming around to the idea of a co-ed Madison Scouts. However, I also know Chris and Dann pretty well and the lengths that some people are going to to accuse them of various acts is ridiculous. It's really easy to send either one of them an e-mail and get answers to your questions.
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5 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
thanks! one handed typing due to a broken wrist wore me out and i didnt elaborate further. and i know i'm not alone in viewing it that way based on reactions all over social media at that time.
i for one don't care that they added females. if it helps them good, tho i think the organizations issues aren't just gender based. Being all male hasn't hurt the Cavaliers despite the chsnges since Feidler skipped town.
Simply being included in a group of people that misinterpreted a message doesn't make the interpretation correct or accurate. The wording also could be in part due to the fact that the Scouts were accused of discrimination by an alumnus who wrote an article that got a lot of attention right around the same time that this process started. Is it not possible that after being accused, that the directors would go through a process of self evaluation and think "You know... I never thought about this but we ARE being discriminatory and I'm not comfortable with that being part of the legacy of this drum corps any longer." Better yet, why not just ask Chris or Dann how they feel personally about it and if the Madison Scouts have a stance on the issue? I guess actually seeking information isn't as much fun as accusing people of acting in bad faith.
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4 minutes ago, Mello Dude said:
I could have bet the house the drum major this year was going to be female. Let's be honest, the Scouts made this decision to stop people pointing at the dumpster fire that really nothing to do with being all male or coed.
It couldn't be more obvious that you know next to nothing about the inner workings of the Madison Scouts and the directors from this statement. Perception is reality I suppose. It's sad that so many people like yourself would rather advance falsehoods than actually take the time to get real information.
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24 minutes ago, tesmusic said:
It’s not a leap at all if you read the initial announcement from the organization. They literally say that they have a new, non-discrimination policy which allows women. That flat out implies that the male-only version of the corps was discriminating. Had they not wanted people to interpret it that way, they should have made a more basic statement, such as the Madison Scouts have adopted a new policy allowing individuals of any gender to participate.
By definition, the all male policy was discrimination. The Madison Scouts saying “We aren’t comfortable with this policy any longer” does not equal then saying “The Cavaliers are in the wrong for not having the same beliefs as us.” That’s inferring something that has never been stated. No one is out there trying to force their beliefs on someone else. They’re simply stating why they made the decision they did.
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4 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
hiya! just got on dcp for the first time all day...sorry real life held your need up
non-discrimination...so by being all male, like cavies,...they discriminated.
He said being all-male is “one of those traditions that kept on long past its prime.”...and even mentions cavies later below
That’s quite the leap. The quote you chose came from an alumnus that has no current position within the corps and even it doesn’t reference cavaliers. It’s simply one person stating an opinion that the tradition carried on longer than necessary. One could surmise that the leadership felt that was the case simply by the fact that they changed the policy. Then the author of the article states that according to Dann, the Cavaliers are an all male drum corps... which is true. If the author asks “Are there any all male drum corps left in DCI?” do you expect him to give a different answer?
Also, I had decided to click your profile earlier in the day when I was curious why you had responded quickly before and were then unable to do so when pressed. You were active 4 hours before my previous reply so definitely not your first time on DCP all day.
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On 1/12/2020 at 8:20 AM, Jeff Ream said:
Several of the interviews they gave after the initial release
On 1/12/2020 at 10:00 AM, weedyweidenthal said:Could you point me to one? If someone within the organization was actually throwing shade at the Cavaliers, that would be troubling to me.
Based off the facts that after looking for a single example of your claim and your inability to provide a link to an example, it appears to be a fair assumption that your comments are inflammatory and unjust. So it begs to question, what do you have to gain by making up drama about summer marching band...? Real weird way to spend your life dude.
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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:
Several of the interviews they gave after the initial release
Could you point me to one? If someone within the organization was actually throwing shade at the Cavaliers, that would be troubling to me.
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18 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
Continued pushing of inclusiveness as I’d doing anything but what they did was wrong
Which article are you reading?
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52 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
Madison’s own announcement threw shade at the Cavaliers. But then again they’re generally top 6
We must have a very different idea of what “throwing shade” means. I just re-read the announcement and all I see is an announcement and a few quotes from the directors, just like any other drum corps press announcement. I see no possible way you could interpret any of that as throwing shade at anyone.
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4 hours ago, tesmusic said:
That’s not entirely accurate. Many that have been outspoken have been kicked off alumni pages for not falling in line, or have chosen not to write because they know that CK is incapable of accepting criticism and accepting responsibility for his shortcomings, and the board to this point has simply been inept. Furthermore, after CK shut down the original alumni page, many chose not to join the new iterations, so there aren’t nearly as many in the groups, so your sample size doesn’t represent a true read.
Also-I, for example have no issue with going coed...I do, however have zero faith and trust in CK or this board.
Based off of some of the things that have been posted and allowed to remain up, I’d assume that if you did something that moderators determines was worthy of deleting, it must have been pretty over the top. Neither Chris or Dann are moderators and those that do moderate have allowed for some very harsh criticism (which I would frequently describe as unprofessional and counterproductive to the poster’s goals) to remain posted.
In addition, I myself have emailed Chris and on occasion I have posted on the groups to voice my displeasure with various acts and decisions. I’ve never been made to feel that Chris didn’t at least consider my opinion and he’s only ever responded in a professional manner.
All that said, I hope you will consider joining one of the many other groups that are more for reminiscing about our experiences in the corps and at least remain in contact with your brothers in a more lighthearted and positive setting.
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3 hours ago, wilder1966 said:
I think all the opinions in this thread matter to some degree, and show us just how complex this issue has become. On
one side, the alumni (very outspoken in many cases), and then the fans with enthusiasm, and in some cases unconvinced
about the changes in place. This has become as big as the Madison Scouts legacy itself. I find that its understandable
how alumni would forever resist this change, and see where current trends in our culture influenced this change as well.
I have personally accepted what has changed knowing that this is here to stay. My thoughts lately move to the plight of
the Cavaliers. Will they now find themselves under scrutiny, and a demand for the same changes? Will the concede?
When you consider the definition itself of "Cavalier", it seems obvious to me how they will respond if pressed.
That's a big generalization that probably doesn't hold true. A few alumni post here and on public pages on Facebook. In alumni groups that are "private" you would find that most alumni there have accepted changes and support the current administration. As for the Cavaliers, they shouldn't feel any pressure to go co-ed because of decisions that a different drum corps made. It's not like the Scouts were facing pressure to do so either.
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Madison Scouts 2020
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
In my experience, it depends on the staff, but that was never done when I marched at Madison... 2007 Spirit it was commonly mentioned after the regional that the goal was to make finals. 2008 Madison, I think a lot of us had high expectations throughout camps and all days. Then when scores started rolling in it became apparent that we were fighting for finals and the membership knew that but it was never communicated from staff. We were just told to keep working hard and that year's staff pushed us really hard. In 2009, it was apparent early on that the show sucked. I think a lot of us thought we'd still make finals after all the changes, but staff never mentioned placements. In 2010 I think we all thought we were better than the scores reflected. Placement was never discussed as a goal but we were told by a brass staff member that we should care about the scores which was in conflict with a lot of the membership beliefs and with what we were told by the admins. Donnie VanDoren told me in a private conversation that his belief was that it should take 5 years for any hornline to build a program that competes for the Jim Ott award and that the corps could be a medalist within that same time span with the staff we had. Jim Mason also told me that he thought it would be 5 years to become a top corps. That was never pushed on the members but I think that kind of word had spread throughout the corps that it was the expectation and belief. I remember Jim's thing was "Play the game, win the game, change the game." In 2011 I think most of us thought we were getting gypped so no one really cared about the scores. That was the summer of a lifetime for me with the experiences we had performing that show in New York. I believe that the reason that the 5 year plans were never met was in large part due to the hole that had been dug in the previous few years and that the 2014 show was a step in the right direction even though the placements were stagnant. That show was significantly more difficult than the previous shows and really propelled the corps forward. I wish we could have seen Jim continue to design shows, but at least 2015 represented another step forward. Sadly, show design since then has been lacking. I have high hopes for J-Robb's tenure.