silvertrombone

I'm sure someone would have said the same thing about Star when they announced they were doing Balshazzar's Feast, too.

Sooo...I'm reading the recaps this morning for the Olympics and apparently there's some controversy in the Men's Skating event. Apparently, the Gold medal winning American, Evan Lyasek, skated a pretty easy program and won. Russia's Evgeni Plushenko had a more difficult program but took the silver. Yahoo titled the affair, "The night they killed figure skating." Said the author, "In what other sports do you have to hold back in order to win?" http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver...o&type=lgns Well, I can think of one! I'm not an anti-BD hater or anything, but the argument has been broached numerous times that BD has a tendency to design less technically difficult shows with dice, chairs and other props instead of designing difficult shows, etc. Now, I will be the first to admit that BD typically brings stellar talent to the field--always has, for whatever reason! But as far as the show designs go, they just don't come across as trying to do difficult stuff. Yes, I'm a Phantom honk. And I've been plenty critical of my boys in Rockford for various reasons, mostly off-the-field stuff, though a bit of on-the-field as well. But you've got to give it to Rockford--NOBODY can make the charge that they don't design their shows more difficult that the average of the rest of the top 6. I've made the argument several times that perhaps jazz running, blaring triple-forte and playing lots of little black notes isn't the best way to score higher. And then there's the corps' seemingly lack of understanding of what scoring high in visual entails. Cavaliers are another example of a corps that goes for the gold with an incredibly well-designed, and challenging show. While I hate green, given my corps allegiance, I have to give kudos where they are deserved. From 2004 to about 2007 (I was absent before that!), NOBODY wow'ed me with the difficulty and complexity of design that Rosemont did. Soooo...let the bash fest on my comments begin. Call it "constructive criticism." It has worked with my corps, with enough phans offering loving criticism of our home-town corps that the admin team has been listening the last few years. Still room for improvement in areas, but they have heard the alum and the phans and made changes. Can you imagine a Blue Devils show designed with more difficult elements?!? Holy snot, ya know?!? That talent is SCREAMING (literally) for a nice, juicy piece of beef to chomp down on. And following Spartacus and the reception Crown has received the last few years, I believe this would be a GREAT thing for the activity. THAT is my intent. Not to bash, but to offer constructive criticism of a corps' design philosophy with the desire of seeing them put more difficult stuff on the field. Believe me...I'll be among the first and the LOUDEST to praise the same when it is accomplished. Go BD...BLOW MY FACE OFF!!

haha...back then they called those Sopranos! Yes, yes, yes. What he said! Not the cleanest show ever, but Phantom 91 had some great moves...360 degree thingy in Samson & Delilah...guard did a "move" in S&D, too...if you're a young un, you'll appreciate that! PR93 was also chock full of greatness...what jts left out about Estancia was that right before that 360 degree snap move was the crab across the field...think iceberg moving laterally! Taking off of helmets in Fire of Eternal Glory was cool at the time. 91 Star, as jts said...beyond cool...I'd love to see that done today with the improved talent of today. I miss Star. 04-06 Cavies...what was up with the circle drill stuff?? Just...wow! And rotating fours going into and out of the ladders in Chicago show was mind-numbing. Drill in that era of Cavies was amazing. Only 06 Cavies could have beat 06 Phantom...one of the greatest 1-2's ever! Cavies, despite my obvious Phantom bias, were simply other-worldly in the middle of this decade. Any corps that won with Cavies in the 2-spot should be on EVERYONE'S best of list!

Shoot, I wrote a musing in my doodle book back when I was marching that hypothesized a future in the activity where drum corps was included in the Olympics. Of course, since then, we've dropped over a hundred drum corps in the USA and have zero to negative growth Internationally as well. I am convinced the problem is DCI. And to be fair, DCA, and pretty much any other organizing group or "power broker" in the current activity. There is NO reason that drum corps couldn't become an Olympic activity. Look at the draw among International auditionees all over--the same "bug" that each of us caught the first time we saw our first corps perform or rehearse (as was my case) is the same "bug" International auditionees caught as well. But growing the activity means the same old three corps might have to eventually take 4th place instead of their customary every-three-years championship, ya know? Nothing changes if nothing changes...think about it.

Across the freeway (SH 161?) from where Forte has been holding rehearsals Domino's Pizza has a delivery center and they have the 18-wheel trailers similar to the old Phantom equipment truck...you know, two doors on the side? I think PR's had one large door on the opposite side as well...don't know if Dominos' trucks had the one large door or not, but my point is there are obviously trailers with the two side doors similar to PR's old trailer. Just sayin'.

Jim, I appreciate your second paragraph. Your insight is what I was looking for in starting this thread. Would you mind expounding on your recollections?

I think there is sufficient case law to refute your concerns over all-male groups. Heck, football teams generally exclude females. Fraternities. Even the military, despite the fact that many 'patrols' in Iraq became combat patrols, officially exclude women from combat roles. This depsite the fact that women now occupy literally every role in the military...first 4-star General promoted within the last two years! Shriners are all men I believe? Masons, too. Other groups as well. Anyone help with that one? I didn't read your entire post...1am, didn't feel like reading, didn't like the tone of the first paragraph. I think there is merit to all-single sex education/schools...ever hear of the Jesuits? Two of the finest private schools in Dallas are all-male schools. Cavies and Scouts are what they are...started as Boy Scout troops. "No Gurlz Allowed," in the words of the great philosopher, Calvin (the cartoon character). I mean, the majority of participants in DC are male anyways. If you required Cavies/Scouts to become co-ed, would women show up? Sure. But would you really want them to? As for the African-American situation, I think that situation is due to the lower participation in school bands by that demographic. Fewer trumpet players with black skin equals fewer black members of drum corps...fair assumption, right? Fewer corps market to local members...address those points that I mentioned in my first post...the move from neighborhood to national and locals to auditions. Is boy-girl membership fair to bring up? Sure. But aside from those two corps, what are the total membership numbers across the entire activity? Hmm??? Good points, and you're welcome to comment and/or offer factual information. But I think it is fair to say that the integration conversation has historically involved the integration of blacks into, pardon the term, "white" society. I realize that the West Coast has had some issues with racism toward Asians that the South has had toward blacks. Feel free to chime in on the situation in other regions--I'm not an expert on the Cali stuff. That said, I sure did like the recollection of Gail Royer's treatment of all members as "a bunch of kids," to paraphrase. Class act.

Thanks, NT--that's the kind of stuff I was curious about! I appreciate everyone's replies. I honestly hadn't even thought about the "White's/Black's Only" stuff inherent in our society years ago--great to hear and know. Sad, but good to learn. I only read the first page of replies so far...any further comments on the actual 'integration' of the corps themselves? We've heard the problems that sports and the military, etc had with being integrated. I imagine those problems also were present in our activity, but I've never heard any of those stories. I particularly like the story of the manager who said they wouldn't be serving some members...oops! Love that the Director says, "We're outta here!" Love it! Nothing better than economics to change people's thinking.

I screwed this one up...I posted it in the OC deal. Meant to post it here. Sorry. Hey, here's a new topic I've never seen before. My little '49 West Point football analogy got me to thinking. Let's talk about integration in drum corps. Jackie Robinson was the first black in Major League Baseball. Pro and college sports didn't used to have black athletes. I figured maybe drum corps didn't used to be as diverse as it is today. Anyone know anything on this topic? I think it might be an interesting study/survey for DCI. Or an attempt at intelligent attempt at conversation on the planet! I realize that the majority of participants are anglo, probably deriving from the high cost of participating in band and the correlation with the equally high percentage of anglo students in school bands. Couple of thoughts to consider... Drum corps started as a neighborhood thing...what kind of diversity existed in each era/decade? What impact did "white flight" have on drum corps as neighborhoods became higher minority populations in urban settings? Also take into account the shift from neighborhood ensembles to national auditions in this one. Any drum corps from the "neighborhood" era that were minority in focus? I'm really curious about this. Anyone with info? DCI kind of came about long enough after the Civil Rights era that any "integration" may have already occured long before it came about. I've never once heard any charges of racism in the drum corps activity, which I think is pretty notable. Granted, the arts tend to follow that rule, but I think it is worth pointing out that our activity is one of the most diverse and accepting out there. Any insight?

Sorry...meant to post this in WC...oops!

Which West Point football team was it that is usually considered the finest/best college team in history? '49? '46? I don't remember...that time period. And when was the first forward pass? Can you imagine what the Old Timers of that activity in that era would say about the game today? And the amount of showmanship exhibited? I mean, sure, athleticism is quite a bit improved and all. Get my point? Different style of play. Different names. Different faces, especially when you consider the impact of integration on athletics--don't read too much into that statement. Same team names (Texas, Army, Navy, etc). Same uniform colors. Forward pass changed everything forever. Most popular sport in America today. Just sayin!

I don't understand your question...but sure do like the placement. Eric Senzig...fellow Sky 92 member. His dad is a Mafia Wars family member of mine.

Way to go, guys! Congrats to Randy, Brian and team. We in Dallas look forward to joining you guys in WC in a few years.

Oh, I doubt a toss would reach that high. But a pre-season smarty pants on a visiting team was kicking straight up into the screen just because he could. Jerry was pretty ticked. If you try to punt downfield like you're supposed to, you shouldn't be able to hit the screen apparently...you know, try to pin the opponent as far down field and in the corner as possible. Well, this punter kicks it straight up. Pretty funny.

Well, I'm sufficiently impressed...knowing that about 94 is pretty detailed stuff! We were the last corps to perform...actually, I think SCV may have gone after us? Memory fades. I thought that was weird at the time because we only lost to SCV once and never looked back after that. 1/4's seems awfully late for that show to be weighing in on start times. Field was NASTY that night. I mean REALLY nasty. If anyone had fallen they would have gone down in whities and come up looking like a Cavalier (i.e. green paint). Semis and Finals were the first time we beat our cross-state rivals all year. As a matter of fact, I think Phantom beat Cavies at Finals in 96 and semis and finals in 2008...did I miss any in there? Quite a string of success by Cavies, I have to admit. Edit: Oh, and I am ashamed to admit that I went out for a hot dog before Madison's performance in 93. The rain really affected Cavies and Scouts...Cavies were off...Scouts were ON!! Heard them from the tunnel. Oops.

Cowboys Stadium and Reliant are indoors...better legroom, too. Cotton Bowl was tiny as a 6'5" high school senior on the other side of 200 lbs. I'm sure it would be pretty uncomfy now. Of course, that's just me! Good call on Royal/Memorial stadium...can't believe there hasn't been an event there yet! That being said, the Alamodome is pretty cool...if they're not losing money on the event! San Antonio is a nice trip...good food...good bars on the Riverwalk, etc. Fun running into old friends down there. I even ran into an uncle I saw at a family reunion the week before a couple years back. Fair Park area in Dallas is a dump. Really a dump. That's why Jerry Jones went over to Arlington...didn't want to build his stadium in a slum. Unfortunately. Would have been a REAL score for redevelopment had City of Dallas torn down the Cotton Bowl and built a new place. Fair Park is a gem, yes. But drastically underutilized. Cowboys Stadium would have solved that problem. And yes, being on the DART rail line would be a distinct advantage over Cowboys Stadium. Oh well.

Well, as a brand new member of the Board for the parent organization for Forte D&BC I can report that our Director recommended DCP by name just this week. Chris Green suggested DCP as well as other online media for recruiting, etc. Even offered to come on and defend staff and Board members if we get in over our heads. But I've never had a problem with that! ;-) As for OP's thread, I've been saying this for about the last 2 seasons. I was really impressed with the amount of activity during the season...2006 and maybe 2007?? 2008 I made the comment that there appeared to be far fewer posts on DCP than the previous season. Others didn't agree, and then this thread appears. I don't know if all of our old reparte' has simply moved over to facebook or what...you guys would have to tell that. What goes on there--discussion threads on group pages? Are there pages for: DCI? DCP? As well as individual corps?

Email me. See signature. Dave

...lend my assistance in launching Overture Youth Advocacy through the Arts (OYAA) and Forte D&BC in Dallas, Texas. Kudos to those who have done things right who have come before us--we are building our organization on your capable shoulders and look forward to joining the drum corps activity this summer!

BD94...as far as "FAVORITEST," I would agree. I based my choice on "BESTEST," though. Key difference. Shoot, I'd say the same thing about PR96, too. Of course, there have been no fewer than 3 really good shows since then, so my mood may be tempered with time.

ha-ha...so the first reply states... First...response. Thank you for reading. Wow, well, I expected PR96 to have about 100 votes by now! Star 91 crossed my mind, but I had to go with BD94...my PR94 couldn't beat them, so they get my nod! And that HORN LINE!! This was actually kind of a tough list to choose from, too. I would have said Cadets 93 except I'm one of those who has always maintained the wrong corps is listed in this poll. My opinion, I know. And I took a long break after marching, not even being terribly familiar with most of those shows after 94, so I can't even comment on the latter decade. Too bad, some good stuff I hear! Thanks, Mike--glad someone else is on board with the "BESTEST" / "FAVORITEST" thingy!

You guys are serious, right? OK, here goes. I'm just walking down a logical path...don't know if it is accurate or not. Blast me where appropriate. DC used to be totally local, especially in the VFW/AL days, right? You elder statesmen chime in--before my time. At some point, some kid from somewhere sees a corps from somewhere else performing a show that was obviously something else and they decide they HAVE to march THERE. Out-of-state recruitment is born. DC was created as a local activity. Parades are local essentially...some obvious exceptions. Grew into a touring deal, weekends, etc, then some weeknights, then weekends with one regional or national tour leading to championships model. That grew to what we see today. As regional/national touring models became more common, I'm guessing members began coming in from further away. Notice, in all of this, the LOCAL kids have not been mentioned. I'm guessing they were forgotten as a wider net progressively drew in the proverbial "Bigger Fish." Not a new concept or phrase. So suddenly the activity that was intended to "catch" local ruffians and tame them through participation with their neighborhood ruffian buddies became more focused on attracting better and better performers. I'm guessing this probably takes us up to the period of the 60's through the early 80's, with the local model passing away and the national touring model developing and maturing, if that is an acceptable word to apply to it. During this entire time period all of that off-the-field stuff I'm always talking about was being pushed to the side in favor of running these not-for profit BUSINESSES like the musical ensembles most essentially looked on them as. Local kids continued to be the ruffians that they always were, with out-of-towners being more musically trained and more inspired to perform. Etc plus time brings us to today where next to NO local corps exist and next to NO members come from local areas, with a few exceptions. So I seriously doubt that the band directors and other asorted music staff minded terribly the fact that their auditioning members were becoming better and better year after year. Nor did they weap one tear the first year they had ZERO members from the local market. Locals lost out because everyone wanted to build the Santa Clara Vanguard, et al, in their "local" drum corps. Not picking on SCV...I use them b/c they maintain one of those local corps in the B corps. I mean my comment respectfully and hope that I hack off fewer people than if I mention the fact that PR essentially has people coming to the sticks from all over creation and refuse to hold auditions in a sensible location like Texas. DC started out local, and maybe it was destined to become non-local. The performance model was destined to draw in the truly hard-core (corps?) performers, which would then crowd out locals. I'm not bashing, attacking or demeaning either local or national concepts/models/veterans. And I'm not even sure how accurate my analysis is since so much of the local era was prior to my time. I think by the time I marched PR (94) we already had more Texans than Rockfordites in both the auditions as well as membership. I'm sure the 91 Finals being in Dallas probably had something to do with that. Let me know if my hunches are anywhere close. But the locals are still there. Just...nobody is trying to recruit them any more.

b/c it would have to look like those chickens from 'The Producers.' i.e. Hitler hand salute...doesn't go over so well. You really lack all semblance of tact, don't you. Statement. Not a question. Observation. Feel free not to reply.

122,000 posts...wow! Are you retired?

From somebody who obviously understands statistics... Anyone else notice the peculiar "double-bell curve" that seems to maximize in the 22-25 and older 40's age groups? What's up with that? And why does it seem to "bottom out" in my group, the 32-36-ish group? Interesting.