scottgordon

With rare exceptions, if trying to land a jazz gig, having been in corps is probably the last thing I'd admit to.

Wasn't that the year that SCV's umbrellas opened just as the sprinkles started?

Maybe, but that would be even more stupid. As it is, he's probably only going to get a slap on the wrist (presuming that his colleagues testify on his behalf). But if he were to have claimed a tax deduction, and he ever got audited by the IRS, he'd get hit for tax fraud. Doubt he'd get out from under that one.

1984 - my favorite year! Music from all corps was so intense from the top on down. Loved ALL the corps.! Still the recordings I listen to the most. Biggest applause is obvious on the recordings... Troopers closing push.

Wow, just did a quick bit of googling, and you're right. I had no idea the spread of salaries between various colleges was so large.

Strange set of events. First, anyone teaching in public school knows you can't do this sort of creative maneuver without heavy-duty consultation with administration. But what caught my eye was his salary -- I didn't know that any university band directors were making 140K+. That's more than every Engineering professor I know.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I was one (a general audience member with no prior corps experience). I don't know the answer to your question, but I was one. I don't know the answer to your question(s), but the show designs have driven me away (from DCI, at least).

A few of you might know me as one of the dinosaurs who, on rare occasions, crawls out of his cubbyhole to moan about electronics, amplification, Bb horns, and other new-fangled things I don't like. I admit, I unabashedly don't like the direction the activity has taken. HOWEVER, as paradoxical as this might sound, I am also mostly uninterested in the idea of DCI corps doing "retro" shows, or in rehashing old material, however great I think it might have been back in the day. By contrast, I think that the drumcorps medium as it was constituted in the 70s/80s/90s -- i.e., G bugles, acoustic-only, music-based show design -- wasn't anywhere near exhausted in terms of its potential. There is so much great music that was never attempted, and so much great new music as well, that rather than rehash I'd be much more interested in seeing what new things arrangers could do with the classic instrumentation and music-centric approach. One of the things that was so great about corps, was how it could take grand music, and make it even grander and more thrilling... not by changing it and slicing it into pieces, but by the shear magnitude of 60 brass and thick harmony. It also introduced me to a lot of music I otherwise wouldn't have known about. I guess I'd rather see a retro corps model, but with new shows, than retro shows.

No need to explain G bugles when you can just listen to them. How about 1984 BD "La Fiesta" - one of the most awesome drumcorps "tracks" of all time: Nice that their concert formation happens to perfectly match the mic placement. You can even see their two arcs perfectly in line with the pair of mics.

In drumcorps - where the introduction of amplification in pits indeed started the activity quickly down a slippery slope of all ranges of uses of electronics, including staff participation and manipulation in real time and the ever-expanding cornucopia of instruments, amplified or otherwise. Let me try to walk through it slowly... The question of whether amplified pits "sound better" is not one of fact, but one of opinion. To you, it is so obviously better that only a deluded idiot could believe otherwise. But after hearing many years of both forms of drumcorps, I do believe otherwise -- while it may make certain aspects of one part of the corps sound better on its own, and I could understand some people prefering it, my opinion is that it has hurt the overall sound and impact of corps. And to me (like you) it is so obvious that I can't believe more people don't share my opinion. But both sides are just that - opinion - and your opinion has won out and is now pretty much the only version of corps that exists. So you have no reason to be angry and every reason to rejoice. It makes me sad, not mad. The OP asked our opinions - that is mine. However, what isn't a matter of opinion, is that the introduction of electronic amplification of the pit changed the fundamental nature of drumcorps quite drastically. To the point that, there really can no longer be any reasoned opposition to transforming the activity completely to one of marching bands and any instruments desired. I can't think of any. Without amplification, there was always the consideration of what instruments are optimal for a football field. With amplification, that distinction disappears - if it makes a sound, it must be able to be heard. And it is hardly farcical, because the transformation to bands clearly is in progress and happening rapidly, and that too makes me sad because I don't consider marching bands to be a suitable replacement for the greatest outdoor acoustic sound on earth. With all due respect to the pipes, and the rebel yell.

Again, to be fair, this is done in other settings as well, and is generally refered to as "sound reinforcement". Big bands often use it (Kenton band would mic solos, certain instruments, and sometimes sections depending on the venue, but not the whole band). This past summer when I was in Prague, I went to the famous state opera house there and saw Tosca. I am pretty certain that there was some sound reinforcement going on, in the form of small mics on the stage picking up the actors' singing. It was driving me nuts because it was causing strange phasing of the apparent position of the performer(s) as they moved across the stage... the sound would drift from their mouth to one side of the stage or the other (where the speakers were) as they moved closer to, and then further from, the stage mics. I thought the performance would have been improved without sound reinforcement in that case, and I feel the same about drumcorps (for many of the reasons you have cited).

How can you refer to it as "farcicle" [sic], when that is exactly what has happened and continues to happen?

Rabbit hole crack notwithstanding, the purpose of in-ear monitors in rock bands is NOT so that the performers can hear the actual performance mix, but so that they can hear what they need to hear in order to perform. Often, each performer gets a separate unique mix, sometimes under their own control. But it is rarely if ever the ultimate mix heard in the stands. And despite how you interpret the words, I don't think that he meant that performers can't hear themselves, or that they can't hear the people around them. That would be ridiculous. It was clear to me that he meant they can't hear the final blend. Now, to be fair, that was to a great degree impossible in the acoustic days too, since horns are often blowing over and alongside the pit performers. But today the final mix of the pit - as far as what is heard through the speakers - is done largely on the mixing board. If that weren't the case, why would staff consider it so important that they need control over it themselves?

He never said they can't hear what they're playing. He said they can't hear their "final sound output". For many corps, that is true because the speakers are in front of them and pointed away from them. This is also true for many other musical genres - rock bands rely on sound checks before the performance, and a good mixing board operator to ensure that the sound is balanced in the audience. Nobody said they can't hear what they are playing.

Yes of course you were referring to front ensembles. But since they are now a part of drumcorps, they shouldn't be assessed in a vaccuum... is this FEI ("Front Ensemble International")? No, it's drum and bugle corps. So when assessing the merits of any particular alteration of the form, it doesn't make sense to only look at those forms that have the alteration under consideration. Yes BOA has amplification, but not all similar outdoor marching forms do. By your logic, if we are going to consider expanding the use of woodwinds, we should only look to those forms that already have expanded woodwinds, and they say: "see, their woodwinds are better than ours, so we should do what they do." Ok, well at least you are candid about it. So what then is drumcorps? And what is the purpose of having drumcorps if bands are better? Again, that assesses the pit in a vaccuum. I am trying to assess decisions about the pit in relation to their effect on the drums and bugles that, in my mind, define the core of the activity. Stay calm, take a breath. Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, and I don't believe it is out of context at all. If the argument is simply "it sounds and looks good", then indeed that argument could be used to support any addition. What I'm trying to point out is that there is more at stake - the survival of an art form on the verge of being replaced by something else. Because that is exactly the argument used every time a change is proposed and implemented. At no point does anyone stop and assess what is uniquely compelling about drumcorps, and if any of it should be preserved -- even though there are other things in the world that are also good. I believe that I read your posts quite clearly, and was pointing out some implications of them. The discussion might be friendlier if you didn't presuppose everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. There is no need to yell.

But there ARE other outdoor musical pageantry competitions that don't use amplification, such as pipes and drums. Furthermore, your argument could be used to justify woodwinds and anything else that "bands" do. The question that remains in my mind, is not whether everyone else is doing it, but whether drumcorps should be doing it. I am equally un-swayed by the "look how great they are" argument. By that argument, anything that's "good" should be allowed. For instance, what if one of the corps came out and just played football? You could say "but look at how good they are at it", and how well it blends with the football field. There are LOTS of good things in this world. Drum and Bugle corps is one thing that is very, very good, and I don't see why it needs to systemically replace itself with other things.

I actually felt that - before the days of amps - I could hear the individual contributions of pit players better than I can today. That's because every sound made was emerging from the physical point at which it was produced. Now, all of the pit sounds (and even some horn sounds) are coming out of two speakers on the sides. When a sound comes out, I cannot tell who made that sound, because the performer and the resulting sound are disconnected in physical space. That is one of the fundamental differences between amplified and acoustic music, and in my opinion it has made drumcorps less impactful.

It is important to remember that producing a good marching band is not necessarily the paramount goal of music education.

Lighting - e.g., LEDs and/or lasers. Although I hate all the electronics, I wouldn't find this objectionable because it wouldn't affect the sound.

My impression is that it depends on the philosophy of the director. My band director didn't care whether or not we put on a good show. Her main concern was that we became the best musicians we could be. That meant that we played a huge diversity of music over the school year, and we never did the same show or concert music twice. We became great sight readers, knew our scales, and developed improvisational skills. Although our band never won festivals, our members dominated in district honor band. Drumcorps was something our director found entertaining, but she didn't consider it important one way or another in terms of music education. Other directors who want to put on a great show and have a competitive band look to drumcorps and learn from it. Personally, I think that the pure education model is a good complement to corps, and I think that corps members and parent would be well advised to let school music do their thing, and not try and pressure it to turn into another corps. There is more to music than perfecting one good show.

??? I think there are more members under 21 in DCA than there are over 21. Have you ever been to DCA?

Let me preface my opinion by pointing out that I have a small recording production and post-production business. I love electronics, mics, mixing, midi, sound reinforcement, etc., use it frequently, and enjoy all of its marvels. But in drumcorps, I HATE ALL of it - synth, mics, amps, speakers, amped pits, ALL of it. Every argument I hear in favor of electronics is that it will finally allow drumcorps to sound like something else. Make it sound like concert hall music, or like rock, or like jazz, or nature, or like water. I love all kinds of music - classical, jazz, rock, folk, techno, celtic, Bulgarian, you name it. And drumcorps. When I go see drumcorps, I am going to hear the rich sounds of 60+ brass and 30+ percussion fill a stadium with a sound that cannot be heard anywhere else. I am not attending to hear synthesized sounds or amplified triangle or thunderous goo being poured out of speakers. All of those sounds are available elsewhere. I know that it allows other sounds to be heard above the horns and drums - THAT is why I don't like it! I am there to hear the horns and drums and don't want to hear other sounds above them. I know it allows designers to produce all the sounds they wish they couuld produce with the full cornucopia of instruments they've always wanted to use - THAT is why I don't like it! I am there to hear what great drumcorps arrangers can do with 60 horns and 30 drums, because that is a medium that is particularly sublime outdoors - so much so that I would drive for weeks in the summer just to hear it again and again. I don't need to drive to hear synthesizers through speakers - I can do that myself in my living room. It saddens me to see drumcorps continually diluted because of all this inferiority complex, when drumcorps has a 75-year history of being THE uniquely thrilling apex of acoustic brass and drums.

Yes, but did they do "Panic Attack"? That's the one that was on my list. http://www.hardbat.com/NeverDone.html

I keep a website of great music that surprisingly no corps has ever done: http://www.hardbat.com/NeverDone.html

Sadly, I have to say that - in my eyes - things have gotten so far afield from the version of drumcorps that I love, that I wouldn't change anything at all. Too much would have to be altered to return it to a state that would thrill me again, such that it simply couldn't be done. And changing just one thing wouldn't make much of a dent... more likely it would just anger the most ardent current followers and participants. Nothing lasts forever. The corps have chosen their direction and they have a new set of adherents with a new set of tastes. That's the way of the world... art and musical forms come and go, eventually drifting away either into obscurity or evolving away into something else. I believe that is what we are observing now.