Puppet
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A note about HS bands today. I was in a competitive band and my high school band back in the day (I graduated 1981). The band that competed was judged using the same sheets as the drum corps (Boston CYO Circuit). The hs band did shows at halftime. The difference was night and day. Fast forward to today. I was talking to a man who introduced me to his son who proudly told me he played baritone in his high school band. Knowing I love drum corps, he talked about his school’s program. They also compete, are judged in a way similar to drum corps, and all the terms he used were drum corps terms. Those similarities were merely surface, however. Where I really saw that some high school bands were similar to what drum corps was back in the day was his pride and dedication. It sounded like stories told by kids in drum corps, drill teams and competitive bands back in the day. Also, he mentioned that his band’s director marched with a drum corps that wore red and black uniforms. Since his school is located near Boston, my guess is Boston Crusaders or North Star. A drum corps person was instilling the lessons he learned marching to the kids he taught today. While this is good news in many ways, there are about 350 school districts in Massachusetts, but fewer schools have bands that even do halftime shows, speak less of competing.
However, there is some “hope” for the music majors. Many of the young people who march claim to be “music education” majors. There performance days may end at the age of 21 when they age out. They’ll be making a living teaching instruments and getting children from K-12 enthused about music. They’ll also be the ones who can instill a sense of pride and excellence into young band members. It may not look like drum corps of the 90’s, 80’s, 70’s, 60’s, or 50’s, but it will, still have essential elements.
Huh?
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To address the question rather than going out on all these tangents (all interesting - alot of knowledge out there), I think the closer answer is the mid-1940s St Vincent's and Holy Name Cadets.
These Corps regularly filled 25,000 seat Roosevelt Stadium. Troopers didn't put 5,000 people in the stands when they came to Jersey in 66 so they hadn't popularized DC in the heart of the activity the way Vinnies and HNC did. They were selling out stadiums long before the Troopers existed. Don't forget that when the Troopers were big, the VFW and AL Championships were still part of their annual conventions and the Troopers didn't put any more people in the stadiums than the popularity of the Jersey Corps did.
If the Troopers were the first Corps to make the activity popular for the younger respondents and friends, I can understand your point of view. No direspect intended. Just wanted to share my knowledge and viewpoint,
Kevin Doherty (kdoh)
You make a good point but you must also realize that the way the NJ corps were able to fill those stands was because the activity throughout the Tri-State was so popular. Friends and family from all over would show up in droves (also their cars!) My friends and I would take the train to Roosevelt from NY. BTW, you left out Blessed Sacrament, St. Lucy's, Our Lady Of Loretto, The Queensmen, Selden and other big names of the early sixties. They had a little to do with the popularity here in the East.
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thanks so much..yes the good ole days were good for sure and theres so much that we had that maybe some dont now BUT I think it can be the same in reverse. As to the title of the thread I dont think drum corps needs to be saved, it is what is is in 2011 and I dont really think there is a problem..Now is it different..of course, are there less fans maybe to the activity,...yes I think so....is this something that can be changed well time will always tell but I think bands provide alot more than they did back in the day which also could be a reason why we get such talented kids coming into the activity rather than the novice to music or ther marching arts.Putting drum corps aside, the world isnt the same as it was 40 years ago why would drum corps be.
Not to belabor the point but I grew up in a city where we did have great band experiences. I played in the New York City All City Orchestra and the All City Band. We had jazz bands of every stripe at Music & Art High School. But Drum Corps was a thing apart. Maybe that was because most High Schools here didn't have football teams. For us, band was an indoor thing, Orchestra was an indoor thing except on those rare occasions when we'd play in the shell in Central Park. Darn right I wish I could have marched with the Queensmen in 1961 but by '71 I was in the Brassmen. By '81 I wasn't even looking at drum corps at all. In '91 I was becoming a fan again and have been so (with some trepidation) ever since. I won't trade my laptop for a Smith-Corona nor my iPhone for a rotary ... I get that whole 'the world has changed' thing. Some things (like honesty, work ethic, etc) have not changed for the better. But there ya go.
Oh yeah, about the food: We had oodles of money through our weekly bingo so we ate and slept really well on tour. Wes Hobby didn't call us The Cinderella Corps from Brooklyn, New York for nothing.
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Thank you for this
and so glad for you that there's footage of your corps, sincerely lindapThank you ... you're so polite.
I apologize for the multi-post everyone.
Hope you get a kick out of seeing what I was part of as much as I enjoyed BD from BITD!
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you are very right..it was a great time.....loyalty was something not just taught but admired..It wasnt an " I " time but a "WE" time. I teach WC now and I think young members today dont understand that concept. BUT I will say, I wish I had the opportunities they have today..although I love the shows of the past and are excited to look back at times and remember I would have loved to march a show of today..the design,the creativity, the physicality, the drama and the complexity........different times...different members, different needs.. we also had to communicate face to face not by some electronic means....kinda sad.. I watched kids texting each other on the same bus all summer, I found some kids couldnt talk to each other face to face but put an electronic in their hands and they didnt stop....as I said different times...theres the good and bad of it and of course someone of the age to march drum corps today wouldnt agree because they dont even know a time before cell phones and computers and that wasnt that long ago. In a way I feel bad for them but also envy them at the same time
Whenever you start to envy them just think of the gruel they have to slop down while on tour. There was nothing better than to get out of a long bus ride or 5 or 6 hours and go into a restaurant and order anything you wanted, eat joke and relax and yes, actually talk to each other about the adventure of the next day ... that excitement that came when you were actually going to see a corps you'd only heard on a Fleetwood record from the year before or only saw a grainy photo of in DCNews. Please don't envy them, continue to feel sorry for what they are missing and know in your heart that if our instructors had thought of some of the stuff they're doing now, we could have done it then ... except for the penalties.
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You hafta ask?? POST!
Didn't mean to close down the whole thread.
Sorry ...
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Kewl, Michael. And in color, no less. Kinda makes me want to post a link to the Brassmen OTL of the same year.
Sort of an East Coast / West Coast thing.
I think ours was shot on BetaCam then transferred later to VHS and I personally digitized it to an MP4. Picture quality not so hot and in B&W but the sound ( for 34 horns ) is good.
Would you mind?
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I had a bus like that once.
My girlfriend had boots like that once.
She's in there somewhere. Which reminds me. Was it me or were girls in suspenders kind of a turn on? Our uniforms (even the skirts!) were worn with suspenders and ... well, never mind.
PS (edit) yes, they are twirling those 7 foot pikes!
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Well some of what he wrote does reflect a segment of drum corps veterans who don't care for what DCI has become. Really, I suppose it comes down to a matter of taste. Some folks find the current version of junior corps pleasing and others (including me) do not. I think the frustration is valid. I guess we all have our dreams of what a junior corps should be...
Hmmm. When I dream I dream of what junior corps was. Young people between the ages of say 12 to 18 who mostly spent their entire drum corps careers in one uniform. The current version is what we got. Mostly adult professionals (17 to 25) who will bounce around from corps to corps in search of that ring.
It is what it is and whatever it is it is no longer "junior"! And that's my biggest beef.
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Wait, I'm going on record as saying the only things I really agree with is that 35 years ago was 35 years ago and that 35 years ago I would have been 25 and unable to march in any junior corps ... I believe might be the average age right now.
And yes, if the Star model had been picked up by other drum corps there might be less financial woes among existing drum corps ...
But, c'mon a rant is a rant. It's just this kid's feelings. Doesn't have to be factual. For most of us feelings are reality.
This whole DCI thing (it's problems and everything)this whole "we lost so many corps" thing, this whole "the halcyon days of drum corps" thing is and has been a lot of whining many of my age gave up (and I sure did - but I stopped pouting after like 1989 and began to accept junior drum corps for what it was) and we have been somewhat rewarded with shows designed by George Z - Star's double-cross comes to mind - Spartacus and more recently Phantom's Juliet.
In between, there have been some great little tid-bits.
I will continue to look for that one little cherry in the bowl of vanilla ice cream and sigh with gratitude when it happens.
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Heck, gas was in the 25 cents range when I started driving. Love the VW bus in the picture too.
Not to mention those cool black boots.
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I gather from the tone of the posts here, and the complete-sentence thoughts being expressed, that Tim, Puppet, and Oldfart are "old guys", and I have always highly valued the chance to learn from people older and more experienced than I. I wonder if Tim and Oldfart and Puppet would share their ages? Disclosure: I'm 52, probably a youngin to you guys, and I went to my first show in '72. Guardian and DrillMan and I argue lots on the WC threads; I like to get this, seemingly, "older" viewpoint. I probably share lots of your feelings anyway.
But, to the point. It's hard to tell your hyperbole from your point, Puppet. I get the one-liners and, again, I value and agree with much of what you say. It's always good to establish where you are before you plan a way forward.
The arguments about costs to participate are relative - I make more annually today than my Dad made in 10 years; $125 finals ticket prices don't bug me. The fact that corps run "hand-to-mouth" bugs me, when they're charging for kids to participate. In a way, you should expect it: as the number of corps has diminished there are now more qualified members available each year than the (sadly, low) number of corps can handle. The supply of MMs far outstrips the number of corps that can take them. It also reflects the nature of kids today, many fewer kids will "settle" and march a lower corps if they get cut at their dream corps. They'll just go home and do something else. When directors started seeing the long lines at auditions they (rightly, to some degree) started charging to whittle out the not-serious and less-experienced.
More thoughts later...
I am 60 years old. I am a writer by trade. I began my drum corps career at the tender age of 12. I, unlike many of my peers, was about to attend Music & Art High School when I got hooked on Drum Corps and I already played The Horn In "F" in both the All City (here in New York City) orchestra. I was a member of the Queenaires Drum And Bugle Corps from Queens out of the St. Catherine of Sienna parish from whence the Queensmen and the Marionettes both originated. From there I marched St. Joseph Patron Cadets and then St. Rita's Brassmen. I will reiterate that there where no dues paid or needed to march with those corps. There were no auditions to speak of. After an entire winter of rehearsals, you knew who the "not-serious" were and that was that. Experience was a non-issue. You got experience by doing. Those were simpler times. Now that I have rambled on I must also say that these pages are not dissertations or essays ... just mostly replies to what we've seen. I am not here to change the Drum Corps world any more than I could change Hy Dreitzer's arrangements or Carmen Cluna's drills. I couldn't play the Mellophone like Barbara Malone but I was a #### happy mid range player who just happened to be in one of the best horn lines of our era. No. Really. We were.
Not sure how old, but I know Puppet marched with St Rita's Brassmen as a mello player pre-DCI.
Quite right, Mike. And a better competitive spirit couldn't be found between our two organizations (among others!) at the time.
Hmmmm....since others utterly destroyed you while replying to this same thread on another part of the board (especially Mike Boo)....you have no rebuttal??
Anyone? Bueller?
*cricket cricket cricket*
I thought so.
Next time you go on a long rant, at least try to get ONE "fact" correct.
Oh, yeah. They call it a 'rant' because it is a rant. Otherwise it would be called a formulaic equation or something.
Just saying.
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While Elphaba said most of what I would have to reply and many of you have chimed in with your memories, I must most ardently add as I have said many times before.
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If these are World Class Drum Corps, why then are they sleeping on floors and eating from what can only be called roach coaches?
With all the money we didn't have we always slept in Hotels and Motels and ate in restaurants while we were on tour.
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Why do these so-called World Class Drum Corps have so many money problems when the members are required to pay thousands of dollars each just to participate?
I was a member of a "Class A" drum corps who funded itself by running a bingo once a week and we never required our members to ever pay a fee or any dues.
All else has been said over and over on these pages. There is no solution to what DCI has become.
Yes, I do love to see these fresh-faced adults going through their paces.
No, I do not love that I have to have a second mortgage just to buy a ticket to a venue in which I cannot hear a blessed thing other than the synthesizers.
Yes, I appreciate the time and effort put forth by these fresh-faced adults through their try-outs and camps and travel and so forth.
But no, I do not think for one single second that they appreciate the year-long efforts we gave to play and march for our 6 to 7 month competition seasons.
Am I whining? Heck no. I wouldn't trade my time and my experience for one single minute of those adults who are "marching" now. Why? Because those are memories (selective though they may be!) of my youth. My adolescent days are precious to me. There will never be any going back to how Drum Corps was. But I ask you: Will any of these adults in uniform ever experience thee thrill of seeing for the first time a corps they have never seen in person before?
There's the rub, my friends. There is no thrill for these people ... ever. And it's a shame.
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If these are World Class Drum Corps, why then are they sleeping on floors and eating from what can only be called roach coaches?
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"Worlds Fair Championship":
The August WF Championship was actually a VFW show, run by "None Other" than Tony Schlecta. Yeah, one and the same. The Daily News Show was much earlier in the season amd run with a Prelim and Finals for both seior and junior clases. Blesed Sac won the junior, Hawthorne Caballeros the senior.
The WF contest was actually decided by penalties. St Kevins and the Racine Kilties BOTH had one point penalties that cost them each the title.
The next day, at the Bridgeport World Open Prelims, in a surprising turn of events, the Racine Scouts, Garfield Cadets and St Lucys Cadets (As well as the Madison Scouts) ALL beat St Josephs knocking them into a 14th Place prelim finish.
Talk about point and position swings....
Elphaba
WWW
So ... it's not often I get to do this but I've got to quote you verbatim on this because it's just beautiful.
"They had a "Prelim" (Won by Blessed Sacrament, due to a 2 point "Lateness" penalty to the Garfield Cadets), but THE "Record Penalty" went to St Josephs Patron Cadets who were smacked with a whopping 17 POINTS in penalties for being late.
Blessed Sacrament went on to win the junior "Finals" (St Lucy's & Garfield were the other "Finalists"), and the Hawthorne Caballeros won the Senior NY Daily News Championship with the Sunrisers and Marksmen rounding out the contest."
And you're right - it was May of 1964 at Flushing Meadow
1 Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights 79.420
2 St. Lucy's Cadets 78.530
3 Garfield Cadets 78.200
4 Hawthorne Muchachos 73.900
5 Holy Family Defenders 72.000
6 Connecticut Royal Lancers 70.570
7 Selden Cadets 69.630
8 Bronx Kingsmen 67.620
9 St. Annes Loyalaires 67.270
10 OLPH Ridgemen 65.000
11 Lindenaires 55.300
12 St. Joseph Patron Cadets 42.020 - minus 17.00!
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You know, I forgot how long ago this thread was started and whilst reading through a thought struck me: Troopers: when did they really start that touring thing? It had to be 1964. They traveled from Colorado through the Midwest, out to NYC and ended that year in Connecticut for the World Open.
The stopover in New York City was memorable ... why?
Because the World's Fair was happening The World's Fair Championship sponsored by the New York Daily News. The scores:
1 Chicago Royal Airs 85.300
2 Saint Kevin's Emerald Knights 84.600
3 Cavaliers 84.450
4 Racine Kilties 84.350
5 Troopers 82.800
6 St. Joseph's of Batavia 82.300
7 St. Lucy's Cadets 81.950
8 Racine Scouts 80.900
9 Garfield Cadets 78.550
10 Magnificent Yankees 76.950
Suffice to say many, many people from around the World took in that show.
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I think its appropriate to share with others the hard, gritty, and challenging environmental setting and beginnings of this Corps. On any number of occasions in its 60 year history by all measures BAC looked for certain that it was going to fold. The fact that it did not succumb to that, is a testament to its ( pardon the pun) " Conquest " of those obstacles and challenges.
I really don't have much to say beyond the fact that I just love when someone posts a line that totally encompasses not only the spirit of the subject but also gives an historic nod to one of the all time best OTL performances and in doing that causes us to remember one of the all time great solo soprano players of our era. All in one sentence. To me, that is one Bad Axxed Corps reference.
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Today's program is brought to you by the letter 'K'.
($1 to Sesame Street)
Which allows me to introduce a small corps from Kweens, NY who were an off-shoot of the once great Kweensmen from St. Katherine of Sienna. I marched with the Kweenaires for two seasons just before I joined St. Joseph Patron Kadets of Brooklyn, NY.
...K?
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DCP always amazes...now you want to tell people how to run their corps from what their mission or beliefs are....No outsider has the right...... sorry
I believe alumni have chaged some things over the years. so a message from the outside I dont holds alot of weight nor should it....its their corps.But if it came from past members and THEY want criteria changed then thats another story. Not even saying you are wrong( or right ) BUT its their criteria for THEIR corps.
Please ... let's just nip this before it goes from full flower to hedgerow because it is the people who poston DCP who amaze me. I was not being facetious when I said you should stick to your guns. I was not (as I sometimes can be) being jocular or in any way deliberately inappropriate (as I also sometimes am) and please pardon the parenthetical prepositional ending but what I was doing was defending your defense of a corps you went out of your way - and somewhat obtusely off-topic - to let us know from your initial post how much you love and respect. I respect that. I drop as much love about my own past on these pages to hope that I do not become too droll when I do. I mentioned Barbara to in some way bring the Garfield reference back on topic as to how The Good Old Days [that] Weren't All That Good were sometimes very good. So continue to stand up, just don't get so up tight that your message gets garbled with dropped punctuation and unnecessary capitalization.
Oh ... and one would think you would be somewhat proud of the fact that some outsiders have enough respect for one of your own to voice their feelings about her. She was a standout to me when I couldn't have cared less about Drum Corps at all.
That's right for about two decades ('73 to '90) I didn't care a wit for Drum Corps.
That said, from what I have read and heard from other horn players, I was not, and am not alone about my respect for a great horn player.
I know, I just can't shut up once I get started ... so I'll stop.
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great players have gone through that corps and maybe shes one of the greatest But I dont believe that's the criteria for the HOF
You just stick to your guns. 'Cause I believe people gotta stand up for something - so you go.
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As a horn player, I may not have the creds to mention this, but BITD before there was a DCI there were many drum corps with great rifle lines (and who carried pieces that were in excess of 8 pounds) who did a great many things besides just walk around with them ...
The Troopers were mentioned and I will not let Anaheim's line go unmentioned, but there were others on the east coast For instance:
I thought our guys kinda looked great just marching in formation before they did stuff...
And they did do interesting stuff, too...
I wish I had some more shots of the Bridgemen, Bluerock, Warriors and if I'm not mistaken didn't Boston have a good looking rifle line, too?
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They were the Peterborough Krescendos (sponsored by the Kinsmen Club if I recall) which were in klose proximity to Kawartha Kavaliers from Kawartha Lakes which shouldn’t be konfused with the Kiwanis Kavaliers (sponsored by the Kiwanis Club) and originally from the twin-cities Kitchener-Waterloo. Also, in the early 1970’s, Alberta All Girls Drum and Bugle Band (there’s a reason for the name) had won a kontest in Moose Jaw which was sponsored by the Kinsmen. Hope this klears things up
Of kourse! All things konsidered, it was easy to be konfused ... what, with all the Kiwis and their kin.
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Hell, it was ME who submitted the nomination for her last time...ME...a BLUE DEVIL who she BEAT for the ring!
Did she get in? No....and that's still a travesty, that the greatest mello soloist of all time isn't in her own corps' HOF.
Sam, I was one of those who saw your letter and piled on with many others to get the folks at Garfield to change their minds...
Tradition kinda sucks when you can't honor your own.
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i believe the criteria ( if not mistaken ) is not if you were a member, or played well or even the best , but what you did for the corps above and beyond being a member or non member ( volunteer). Kind of like DCI HOF as well as WGI...I think
If you knew what kind of obstacles she had to overcome and all the horn players she inspired I truly believe she went far beyond the pale. But I do want to say that the only reason I made the reference was because I wanted to mention something about the good old days that was positive and not the generic clap that I'd read.
There were too many good things about the good old days and to me they far out weighed the bad. One of the best was seeing corps for thee first time. I remember our mid west tour when I saw the Anaheim Kingsmen for the first time (I'd never even heard them before that!) and marching against the Troopers and hearing the crowds love you. Playing our rep in the parking lot on kazoos in the parking lot of a Howard Johnson restaurant in Warren, Ohio to the crowd's amazement and delight ... there were all kinds of good stuff like that. Now the good old days may not have been all that good but to me the were all that.
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Saving Drum Corps part I: Defining the problem
in Historical Junior Corps Discussions
Posted
No. no. no and no. There is no comparison to then and now. A 12 year old then (new member of any drum corps) cannot be compared to the adult members (18 and older) now. It's not fair to compare. To me and in my way infinitely humble opinion the amount of dedication was off the scale compared to now. Most kids of our era were not looking for a ring. We didn't have them to have for goodness sake and maybe that's why = it was for "goodness sake!" There was 'community.' not airline tickets. There was loyalty. Dedication was defined as a year-long effort to succeed, a year long effort from a pre teen inductee to become an integral part of and corps and wear one uniform for their entire marching career. All I do not like about DCI aside, it is the ring whores who I think are the worst of the worst of the current Drum Corps world. yeah, that.