Puppet

I really relate to this. Nobody, and I mean not a single member of our horn line from St Joseph Patron Cadets in 1965 knew how to read music. We all learned every note by rote. When I was accepted to Music and Art High School in Manhattan as a young tenor, I still couldn't sight read, but I was made to learn. That was also the year I learned how to play Horn in "F" (also known as the French Horn) and the next season I was playing a bugle with a similar name. It was great to be able to help my section and other players in the corps learn their parts - because I learned to read music. Orchestra, yes. Band, no! G

Ballet - different subject. Those women are not fluff and neither are the men who put themselves through similar torture to create great art. I work in advertising as a writer, producer. Many of the same terminology issues as yours. However "guard" should be there to protect something - such as the flag. We BTW had a coed guard in 1973. Our rifle section was all young men. As I may have said in a previous post, we all respected each other and our roles in making the corps as a whole a coherent unit. Dancing - as opposed to marching. Color me old. And a "thumbnail" will always be a "thumbnail" whether you do it on a cocktail napkin or a MAC.

As Mike Boom knows, I am very passionate about my Drum Corps and it's history and I have some trepidations about sharing them sometimes because of all those in threads like these don't go back as far as I do. I was gladdened however to see the post by the ex Queensmen - I, a few years later marched in my first Drum Corps as a Queenaire from Queens NY. We actually wore the cast off uniforms from the Queensmen. We were a co-ed corps and as a fourteen year old rookie I had no perceptions about women in our Guard. That's just what it was. As for the "guard" of today? Why do they still call them that? Aren't they just dancers? I don't see the American flag on the field? What are they "guarding?" I think musicians are musicians - they are only good or bad, no male or female. I marched for 3 Drum Majors in St Joseph Patron Cadets and St Rita's Brassmen. Kathy English in 1964. Both she and Kathy Bartholomew until 1969 and then Maria Costa 1970. I have nothing but the highest respect for all three. They had nothing to prove - they were our Drum Majors and when they said "Hit the line!" We did it. As to women needing to prove themselves in any section or for some sort of approval or self gratification - that sounds like a question maybe Dr Kinsey would have asked in the 1950s. It's moot. Look around - By dancing instead of marching, the women who join drum corps and are not musicians are the ones who are taking that giant step backward into subservience. I mean, who wants to be fluff? These are probably not the answers you were looking for but they are my honest opinions.

Just a quick post to say as far back as 1965 and 1966 we marched for two of the most gifted Drum Majors I could ever imagine playing for. As young as the were, Both Kathy English and Kathy Bartholomew had an instinct for direction that few have today. As did young men of the day both could leap and time their landings to the exact downbeat of the a orchestrated attack which added both GE and executional verve to that moment. I believe that living in the same city in which Leonard Bernstein was working may have helped. They were beautiful and commanding. I think I have a picture of them holding the Greater New York Circuit Championship flag from those years. I will post it when I find it. BTW the corps was St. Joseph Patron Cadets from Brooklyn, N.Y. Quick note on our Color Guard. Like the corps of the times, Women didn't play, but ours was the first to actually do more than hold and dip their flags. They spun them while marching an enthusiastic drill! Their cadet style uniforms, featured black "Just below the knee length skirts trimmed in the same powder blue as the jackets trimmed with yellow" and black riding boots. I sometimes wonder why, with what they do, we still call the people who jump around "the Guard." Our young women (oh yeah! They, as were the young men in our corps were never called anything else by the Adults! It was uplifting to say the least - enabling, even!) They were our sisters - nothing but respect. Another note: Fran Vergilio one of our guard was yet another needless loss during the attacks on September 11, 2001. A great loss to the world, she. You can read more about her at http://www.stritasbrassmen.org/passing%20review.htm - I will write more about this great subject. This was mostly fluff - there is history to tell. THE COLOR PRESENTATION. And yes, we need this back in Drum Corps.

As a rookie on these pages, I try to read all the posts before adding my two cents to any subject. You all have made valid points and you all have left out one very important aspect of what made Drum Corps of the 60s and 70 so important especially to those of us who marched out of the inner city areas of this country. This was once a truly patriotic thing to do. We honored our Country's flag in drill and music. I marched against Mike D back then from St. Joseph Patron Cadets and then St. Rita's Brassmen. He can well remember how far we came and how fast. But all of us, Blessed Sacrament, The Garfield Cadets, the Muchachos from New Jersey, The Bronx Kingsmen, the CCMC Warriors, the Carter Cadets - we all didn't riot during the riots, we honored each other and our Country each and every time we stepped on the field. In our corps we could boast we had just about every ethic base covered and we loved each other better than family. I changed my mind. What's missing? Love and Honor. Plain and simple. Thank you.

But if you go a little further back - to 1971 let's say, many corps like St. Rita's Brassmen were all over the field… And the drummers were not left out to just march up and down on the 50 yard line. Carmen Cluna believed in integrating everyone in his drills. case in point.

Just had to add this picture. St. Joseph Patron Cadets at the Greater New York Circuit Championships 1966. Second year winner in a row. And yes, they were spinning those flags.

Am I not getting something? Who are these Corps? Class "A" in North America was populated by Corps like Anaheim Kingsmen, Casper Troopers, Boston Crusaders, 27th Lancers, Madison Scouts, St. Rita's Brassmen, Blessed Sacrament, The Bridgemen, the CMCC Warriors…or has somehow the classification changed? BTW - here's a pic of the famous knife fight from West Side Story from our 1972 show.

Ok, I could just be out of my mind, but could there possibly be film/video of any pre DCI big shows? '70, '71, '72 US Open, World Open, CYO Nationals, Danny Thomas Invitational?

St. Rita's Brassmen. Just for some of you old timers. There's an Off The Line Formation

funny, I think almost every corps has a tymp painting story. Eric Perrilloux, our drum instructor was old school in 1969 ... "Tymps in Drum Corps? What nonsense. these corps are only carrying them around for status - kinda like Elvis carrying his guitar." But Hi Dreitzer, our horn arranger convinced him that because we were playing an orchestral OTL by an Italian Composer no less that it would be cool to open with a roll up on the tymp. And EVERYBODY marched - not just back and forth but as an integral part of the drill. I'd put our four guys up against any - especially with Eric's arrangements. But what do I know, I was just a horn player. Here they are during our OTL in '72 cutting across the field on a diagonal about to wheel in behind the American Flag Section and lead the rest of the corps down front to the center of the field for the finale of the Ride of the Valkeries!

Oh - just shows how old I've become. Our horns in the sixties were in "g" And here's our color presentation from 1967.

A couple of thoughts on this thread mainly because it reflects the History of Juniors with only three words "OFF THE LINE." As someone else said or referenced or should have said mid field starts don't count. And do they even call that the "Off the line" any more? As to size, well 70 horns is going to sound pretty loud. But in the late sixties in the East St. Rocco's Cadets, (and somebody mentioned my beloved St. Joseph Patron Cadets a few pages back but we were from Brooklyn, NY not Newark God bless you!) and were way up on the decibel scale with like 32horns. But you could take any horn line from the East back then from the Blessed Sacrament Black Knights from New Jersey, to the Kingsmen from the Bronx with our single piston and slide combination Bb horns and if you doubled their size say from 32 to 64. St. Joe's Cadets opener of Ride of the Valkerie would have knocked you on your collective backsides - yes, we were that loud in 1969. The corps that roared!

Just to join in here for a bit of whining about not winning: We got our share of kudos, but I don't believe the judges (remember judges?) really understood what we were doing most of the time. during the late sixties early seventies, we were a very small (34 - 38) horn line - even though you wouldn't know it if you closed your eyes. Out of uniform, I would always hear people say things like: Those Brassmen think they're something, but c'mon they're just from Brooklyn! There's something to learn however from always being the also-ran. I'm proud of those lessons and you can ask any one who marched with our organization and they individually and to a man and woman will say virtually the same thing.

1 Blue Rock 84.600 2 Madison Scouts 83.150 3 DeLaSalle Oaklands 82.150 4 Cavaliers 81.550 5 Des Plaines Vanguard 77.750 6 St. Rita's Brassmen 77.450 7 St. Joseph's of Batavia 75.950 8 Bridgemen 73.200 9 Nisei Ambassadors 73.100 10 Beverly Cardinals 72.950 11 Appleknockers 70.250 12 Milford Shoreliners 67.850 1971 Was our only trip to the U.S. Open. Our close rivals from Delaware won and I remember being so sorry that The Scouts didn't take it all. I thought they were the class of the bunch that year.Blue Rock just never impressed me. Their shows were always kind of cheesy, the horn line weak for their size and up close, their uniforms were just plain dirty. A no-class organization of rich brats. A true precursor of Drum Corps of the DCI era. I'm not bitter - you just had to compete against those kids nearly on a weekly basis to understand the grime that they exuded. The Anaheim Kingsmen, Cavaliers, Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights, Boston Crusaders, (I'm using their real names from back in the day!) Garfield Cadets, Casper Troopers, 27th Lancers, Santa Clara Vanguard and many more great Corps from the sixties and early seventies were the true backbone of what represented the Open era - World and U.S.! But that was when all those corps had only one enemy - the tic! BR had a teflon ability - we always thought it had something to do with their color guard (most of whom were in their twenties, or looked it!) and the judges - to get unusually high scores that didn't have anything to do with their performances. Sorry to go off this way but no other corps has ever left a sour taste in my mouth. To read so much glory about them in this post - I just had to respond with a bit of perspective from the ground.

Guy let me respond by saying this: By 1972 (my age out year) there were exactly four (4!) Drum Corps that excited me with their esprit, horn arrangements and over all general demeanor. I witnessed two of these corps at a show August of 1969 in Kenosha Wisconsin. They were Anaheim and Madison. And while we were all quietly awed by both organizations (at least I was!) The very next day showed my a very underwhelming Trooper group. But it was The Kingsmen and the Scouts (along with us of course) that were the class acts of that weekend. It was a telling trip for us - to see what we perceived as rich kids from the West who turned out to be just regular kids and what a surprise to see how diverse a group of kids the Scouts were! That was the wonder of the time! All of us recall the time in the middle of a Howard Johnson's in Ohio, waitress came up to one of our contra players and actually said: "I've never seen a colored person in person, before." After we ate, the entire horn line - I think there were 32 of us at the time - purchased kazoos and played our entire rep in the parking lot to a stunned audience. Proving the power of Hy's arrangements. As I say in all posts on the Brassmen web site: All The Love, All The Time! Puppet

I aged out 35 years ago. Saddest day of my life! Here's the score card from August that year. Sigh… After that year - oh never mind.

For a small corps, some great looks! St Rita's 1971 - Danny Thomas Invitational.

Color Presentation - remember them? St. Rita's Brassmen at Lynn Ma. World Open

St. Rita's Brassmen on the line at the open 1969!

Thought I'd Add a couple from St Rita's and St. Joseph Patron Cadets here's St. Joe's. Brassmen

OK. Please forgive this intrusion on a Junior discussion board but - the absolute greatest Off The Line performance by any drum corps EVER was arranged by the great Hy Dreitzer. It was called New York, New York and was preceded by a totally awesome intro called "Applause" performed first in 1973 by the New York Skyliners. That out of the way, going back a little further you'll find on a 1965 recording of the VFW Nationals held that year in Chicago (indoors no less at MacCormick Place) "The Bully" Off The Line by the Cavaliers that will blow your mind - there's a triple tongue solo in there that I dare any Bb player to even consider. It is literally the most perfect performance of any era. They came in second to the Royal Aires BTW. "How The West Was Won" performed in 1964 at The New York World's fair is also among my favorites. Now you would have had to be alive and on the East Coast in 1969 to witness St. Rita's Brassmen's Off The Line of "Il Pagliacci" Hy Drietzer's arrangement of the Leoncavello Operatic overture that segued into what was often misnamed "The Circus Song," complete with a French horn, Mellophone and solo saprano "Calliope." you just had to be there. There are "Evening With the Corps" and a "World Open" Fleetwood recordings of this performance. I agree with many of those who have posted before me but I just wanted to add the "Historical" flavor here. Thanks for your patience. And yes, we were a small corps even for the time but played and marched big enough to place 7th at the World Open that year. Troopers won BTW

I Rich - I've been around for about a week now and I made a reply to a post regarding the color presentation just this morning. I also posted a jpg of St. Rita's Color Pre. I just looked and it was gone ( the pic that is) did I post something too large and the moderator had to remove it? Are there size guidelines? I noticed that on the Historical Junior Corps section there is a warning about mp3 files. Does the same apply? Please let me know. Thank you. Puppet

I must have mentioned the great feeling that performing that color presentation during every show. It was highly gratifying to feel the response of the crowd during our "Woodstock" show in 1971 which featured the West Point Alma Mater theme. This was also the show where later our Contra Bass section actually rushed the American Flag trying to pull it down and were repelled by the the rifle and saber squad while the Mellophone section played wailing sounds like sirens accompanied by the snares rapping out sounds like gunfire and smoke cannisters were tossed on the field. The people in the stands always went crazy! We were always proud of our American Flag and Guard Section and featured them in many segments of our show.

I marched from 1963 to 1965 in the St. Catherine of Sienna Queenaires Drum and Bugle Corps. a class "B" corps that was started by the alum of the famed Queensmen. Then from 1966 to 1968 in St Joseph Patron Cadets who were disbanded and reformed as St. Rita's Brassmen. I aged out in 1972. Best years of my life. We competed against all the big guns in the East of the time and although we didn't win a lot, we made a lot of other corps nervous.