Bruce Linderman

Thanks horns, As a college instructor (Math/science), I probably qualify for a discount on Finale. Yes, I'd like to hear some of your stuff. Bruce linderbru@msn.com

Any suggestions for music software to reproduce drum corps sound? Ihave some old versions of Finale and Sebelius, but have heard better on some websites, like Wayne Downey's. I want to write and playback my arrangements. I have EZ Music Creator, but it's awful. Finale and Sebelius aren't much better. Some programs will give you single brass instruments, but won't chorus it. I have a trial version of NOTATION software, which is the best I've heard for traditional instruments, and renders brass ensembles incredibly well; it's extremely difficult to tell if it's a real recording or computer generated. Thanks Bruce Linderman

Hi Mike and Celeste, It's me Bruce Linderman. The year before in 1963, I was 15, had just joined the Rockets and decided to hitch-hike to Philly to watch the competition. Riggie, of course, won playing "Hora Stacatto". That's another story in itself..... So, after the competition, Riggie asked me how I was getting home. I told him I was hitch-hiking. He would have none of that....he asked his hosts if another guest could stay in their home that night. They agreed, and then Riggie drove me home safely the next day to my doorstep. Just a little story about a big guy! Regards, Bruce Linderman

Well, thanks. That about sums it up. Thanks for telling me something I didn't know. So much for critical thinking.

Geesh! You must be as old as me! As for the above quote, I think I have a clue how hard they work. Yes. I am sure it is the reason for their success. A lot of people seem to be busting my balls a bit over some facts about G bugles vs B flat trumpets. I am not trying to break new ground here. I think the take Jeff Gibbons take says a lot: "G horns and Bb horns are NOT the exact same thing. I would never take my G to a jazz gig. Absolutely NO response to fast licks...it just doesn't respond the same way...no matter how good the player is...it just isn't built for that genre. In my opinion..Bb's are a cleaner horn all around. You can do so much more "cleaning" wise, no doubt. G horns have a characture all their own."

We've gotten a little of topic at times here. This is not about what keys are preferred, it's about whether or not it is fair to judge G horns and "B flat" families together. Let me explain a few things: If it were up to me, all instruments other than G horns would be illegal. Symphony Orchestras would have to be all G brass horns, all rock bands would have to give up guitars for G brass horns.........call me crazy, fine. The fact is that I LOVE G BUGLES and the terrible overblown, out of tune sounds that they make. I am so depressed and afraid that drum corps, in the traditional sense, is dying. And that hurts. The idea of separate scoring is, I admit, a pretty lame one. However, I think there was a majority of well stated arguments giving the B flats credit for being a little "better" instrument. C'mon, $ 3,000 vs $800? Silver vs tin? C'mon, are you going in front of a jury (or I&E for that matter) with a 2 valve Dienasty or a Bach Strad. I know there's a few out there that can make both sound great, but for most of us mortals, we need the help of a little quality. Bu-u-u-t........... I don't believe that quality, or lack of, lies with the Key, it's just a lot of factors, as eruditely submitted by some esteemed members of this community, have favored quality with the B Flat instruments. But many of us choose the one we love, over the refined and pretty one. The one that has loved us back a hundred times through the years. Bruce Linderman Tarentum Red Knights '60 - present

I tend to agree, but Joe Gennero almost disproved that in the '60s with G French horns as an "Alto voice" against the first sop melody. His counterpoint with the French horns was nothing less than brilliant, by any standards even outside of drum corps. To prove it, get an old 1960-61 recording of the Caballeros, I believe the tune was called "Cachita". Play the melody and the french horn parts alone on a piano. It's incredibly beautiful and, I believe, was arranged by Generro. Some of his better arrangements (Although not so popular tunes!) were given to the Pittsburgh Rockets in '62 and '63. Do the same with the French horn/lead sop parts to "Our Concerto" (Yes, I know you never heard of that tune!) or better yet, with "You'll Never Walk Alone" It's standard musical sense that an F Mello with a B flat trump should be a perfect Alto voice, but the throaty, one octave lower French horn, in the right key was an excellent alternative.

Audio, You don't have to insult me. How do you know I can't be reasoned with? You never talked to me before. I was being sarcastic when I used the phrase "Real instruments". I should have used the quotations like I did here. Again, generally speaking, traditional instruments can be found that are superior to traditional G horns. I thought this was general knowledge. Anyway, not only can I be reasoned with, I can learn. If you know something about the quality of G vs B flat instruments, let me know, and I'll thank you for it.

Co, Don't quite understand your reply...want to elaborate? Let me review for you, maye you didn't have an opportunity to read all the posts and replies. The question was posed that, since Bflat instruments are generaly regarded as "superior", perhaps consideration should be given to separate categories, ie, mini corps competition. Good arguments were given for and against, mostly against separate judging. So, I concluded with that. Again. I prefer G for DCA competitions, ie, as a spectator. If however, I would decide to enter an individual or ensemble caption, I would prefer B flat, the same reason I would take my R7 Tour clubs to a golf tournament, rather than my 1960 vintage Wilson staffs. As bad as I play, I guarantee a few stroke difference with my R 7s. I even conceded that separate categories now is impossible anyway. But as you can see, we had some excellent input and some expert remarks on the subject. Thanks for your reply

It seems we have a consensus: 1. B flat trumpets are, generally, superior instruments. 2. Scoring capabilities for a competing unit still involves the basics of musicianship, practice, training methods, etc., over the key of the instruments. 3. Even if we wanted to, having a separate scoring division for B flats and G's ia probably impossible at this time. and last and most importantly 4. WE ALL LOVE OUR G HORNS AND THE BEAUTIFUL, LOUD, FREQUENTLY OUT-OF-PITCH, TRADITIONAL BRASS ORGAN SOUND THEY MAKE! LONG LIVE G! Apologies to Mr Gibbens (I have a little trouble calling him Mr. Since I'm about 20 or 30 years older than he) for mispelling his last name and thanks to him for his expert input (See comments by another youngster, a one Mr. Allen) and giving us the correct version of his maxim for B flat vs G. I thank you all for your input. I will go back into retirement and shut my mouth before I shove my foot in it again. Happy Holidays everyone and best wishes to Erie and their upcoming season! Bruce Linderman Various bugling assignments beginning with the Civil War and retiring from Drum Corps in 1966. Credited with "inventing" Drum Corps with Johnny Grass

Thanks for the expert input.

See my reply to Fran Haring.

OK Good argument, Bu-u-u-ut....I've heard Jeff on G many times and I've heard a recording of him playing a B flat with a Jazz band, and the difference is clear. Maybe we can get Jeff to comment of this. The question is, Why did ES and their G's defeat the B flats? Could it be superior musicianship? Arrangements? Show content? Joey Perro? I just feel, as a rule, B flat trumpets, etc AKA "real instruments" are generally of a better quality. I didn't think this was a point of contention. Ironically, I still prefer G's with drum corps.

OK! OK! Take easy on me! I'm just trying to get a consensus. Not start a revolution. I didn't say it would be easy, or even possible at this time. But I think, as a rule, and I stress this, as a rule, B flat instruments have better pitch, are more difficult to overblow and, finally sound like real instruments. And yes, I prefer G for Bugle Corps.

Although your argument is narrow, it's a hard one to argue. Your logic follows then, that all competing corps must go to B flat to have a competitve edge.

After watching the Mini corps competition at DCA, I'm convinced "B flat" corps should be judged in a separate category. B flat instruments tend to be of better quality, ergo better tone and pitch. They sound cleaner and more like a "real" orchestra, or, in this case, brass ensemble. To paraphrase Jeff Gibbons, "Figure skating or Hockey". They can use the same arena, but should they be "scored" the same? I'm sure this topic has arisen before, but the differences in the relative qualities of the B flats vs G contestants at DCA was very patent. Bruce Linderman

In my experience, how well an Alum is treated/respected is directly proportional to the quality of the organization. For example, I've had the opportunity to observe the New York Skyliners Alumni Corps the last few years, and they seem to treat most everyone like gold. A wonderful group of people.

What would be the purpose of a Mello in "F"Puppet, It make sense the F Mello would provide a better Alto voice against the B flat trumpets. Oddly enough, the old G Frenchies provided an excellent alto voice even though they were also in G, like the sopranos. However, they were twice as long (I think). Although I loved the introduction of G Mellophones, something was lost when Frenches faded out....and that was the "Alto voice" between the sops and Frenches. Listen to 60's Hy Dreitzer or Joe Generro. Genero especially had incredibly beautiful counterpoint/countermelody with the Frenches against the sops. He was a genius with that.

Hello anyone, What is the typical instrumentation of a typical "B flat" horn line, and what are the individual keys of the instruments? Obviously, the trumpets are B flat. What are the "Mellophones", baritones and tubas keyed? Are the baritone/euphonium or tuba parts in bass clef? I was a "B flat" agnostic until I stood directly in front of Cadets 70 horns warming up last summer. I walked directly over to Scott Koter and told him I was 16 years old. For some reason, he didn't believe me. (Maybe because I was 60??)

Really very, very good. Congratulations. Good choice of music and played well on those Die-nasties.I'm starting a campaign to melt-down all dynasty horns. The sops are always flat, and baritones sharp. It's like chalk-board squeeks to my ears. If Defenders got some new Yamahas, they'd sound like the blue Devils.....well, OK, maybe not that good, but better. Keep up the good work, Defenders

Thanks wvu, You notice most of these references were from 10, 15 and 20 years ago. Again, my assertion is 1. Not much new music nowadays, certianly not popular music. 2. There is exellent music written for movies nowadasys however. and 3. Drum and Bugle corps are not playing much of this music from the movies. Certainly not in the quantities as in the past. When was the last time a musical theme made the top ten of popular music? 1968?

I will look out for you guys next year-can't wait to hear. As I said before, I am not against playing older music, especially great classics of all genres, i am against not playing the great music that is being composed in recent years, especially in film.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to steal some of my grandkids games and listen. Try to get Reading to play some of this stuff. I'm really tired of hearing "Uncle Joe's music" by drum corps. Not that I have anything against a great classic, but they get old after 10 times.

It's interesting to note that my favorite corps at DCA, 2007, was Gulf Coast Sound. No kidding really! It was about the best 20 horns on a field that weekend. Congratulations on a great job. You owe a lot to Danny Rodriguez' charts, too. I understand he was dumped in "08. I just don't understand why. Yes. Drum Corps needs to play to the audience. Otherwise, they will be losing mine.

I hope you're correct, and that composing is alive and well. That was part of my point, that bands do a lot of movie music....certainly a lot more than drum corps, and that is why I'd like to hear more of it coming from drum corps, since I don't listen to a lot of bands. I'm a drum corps nut from way back, but I find myself listening to bands more and more nowadays, and for a lot of reasons. Also, getting back to my first love - the symphony. Thanks for the reply, I'm learning a lot.