GUARDLING
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Posts posted by GUARDLING
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5 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
literally the name has zero value because if you own it, and new claims were to come up, guess who has to deal with it?
it's damaged goods. there's far more negative to trying again then to actually try again.
I guess time will tell. That's if anyone tries to bring it back. As I said it was not new when many predicted it could never make the field again...it did.
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20 minutes ago, FormerXyloWhiz said:
Our alumni has tended to be of the mind of "we love the corps but Hop is a cancer that has to go" for a very, very, very long time. If I had to bet, my bet would be that more of our survivors would be of this vain rather than "burn it all down." Just my impression in my time amongst everyone.
I agree many feel that way for sure , maybe most BUT will also say , ( as I Said from the beginning years ago ) SOME, not all but some who got this exposed, were the very same who kissed the butt of GH for years and only when they were no longer needed ( as he did with many ) only then they exposed it. I find IMO those are just as responsible. There are many still out there claiming to be the arbitrator's of good with other corps who may have known and those who claimed , some after decades being around this person, that they knew nothing...hmmmmmmmm
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1 minute ago, scheherazadesghost said:
I think insiders would be surprised how few hardliners actually want it to burn. Do I know those folks? Yes. Do I care about them? Yes. Do I agree that destruction is best?
If that's what you and/or others are still getting from the hardline approach I present here then that's protection, plain and simple. And, you're right, it's not a good place to start a debate from.
Further, you don't have to do what the burn it down crowd says... but listening to them might be informative. Possibly the only kind of informative that could lead to lasting solutions, even if they're tweaked versions of what that crowd presents.
I agree with a lot you have said. I also believe with some subjects a debate is often a losing situation with no winners Sometimes it just cuts to deep . I do agree listening works
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5 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:
You’re en fuego today. 🙂
Yeah...oh well
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2 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:
Survivors aren't likely to be a monolith that all want the things you're proposing though. The real question is: has anyone even asked them what they would want? Without protecting their outside assumptions?
I don't think the activity is anywhere near proving the sins of our elders have been halted though. Not even close.
Your right as far as the activity is not close to proving anything but BOY has it changed and way more aware than the past. It has to start somewhere and needs to IMO. Is burning down everything without moving forward the answer , I guess that can be a heated debate.
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1 minute ago, Slingerland said:
I wouldn't consider 40 years "a short memory."
There are no doubt several other individuals who could be encouraged to file claims against the "Not Cadets", since the new organization would be attempting to use the reputation of the old corps to their advantage, which outside eyes could rightly see as an attempt to pretend like they're not selling the same product.
Not sure who would be willing to put any money or effort into a risky venture when there are much safer ways to give back to the activity. Support Jersey Surf or any of the other smaller east coast corps, and help build them up. Cadets are a movie whose end credits have already rolled.
Well respectfully understand what you are saying.
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Just now, scheherazadesghost said:
Perhaps those alum/community members that want to revive it could consider the wishes of the survivors first?
If they did and not correct things, make it better , apply today's standards to today, we literally could do away with every corps. Heck we could do away with churches, civic groups, Scouts so on and so on. Should we pay for the sins of our parents or prove it stopped with them. Just a thought.
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1 minute ago, Slingerland said:
What would be the point? Anyone attempting to say that their organization shares any DNA (or tries to claim they share that DNA) will have a massive target on their backs from the day they announce. Nothing called "Cadets", nothing referencing the Garfield/BergenCounty/YEA/CAE Cadets, no uniform designed to mimic the Cadets traditional uniform, no efforts of any kind to draw a connection between the "new" corps and The Cadets would be considered safe, and you'd likely find no individuals who know anything who'd be willing to serve as Board members for a corps that is "The Cadets But Not The Cadets."
Consummatum est. May their memory be a blessing.
You don;t have to look far to know people have short memories. All you have to do is turn on cable news to view that from all sides. the short memories
Didn't people say when all this started with GH that they would never come out? Parents wouldn't let kids march? who would work there? well none of that happened and had pretty competitive years as well as top 5 last year.
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8 minutes ago, pedalC said:
Regarding asymmetrical drill, Pete Emmons introduced it in 70s with SCV. Great guy that is a wealth of drum corps history! If you're able to run into him on the road with BD, you could probably get a few minutes to sit down and discuss it with him. Good luck with the your research!
Pete was also with Cadets in the early 70s
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2 minutes ago, HockeyDad said:
I know my kids’ hockey trophies are doing a good job holding up the power cord to my treadmill in the basement just in case we get water down there. Otherwise their value may be $0.50 give or take.
lol...I hear ya. I gave away a lot to members. The WGI medal trophies included..lol
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2 hours ago, Slingerland said:
There's no chance anyone would be silly enough to touch anything Cadets related for the foreseeable future. The brand is dead. Their members have hopefully all found new homes for this season. What was the most likely conclusion 6 years ago when the GH stories started breaking has come to pass, despite the best efforts of the CAE org.
Life goes on.
You're right " life goes on " With that said, you are probably right BUT I would never say never about the Cadets. It's not like they haven't survived before. Yes, this is a big one hard to bounce back from and YES there are circumstances that could make it nearly impossible ( unfortunately ) but this corps on a shoe string survived the upheaval from Holy Name to Garfield Cadets and many other times in their history. Of course this is different but this corps also survived when the murder of a drum major happened BITD. Many said they were done then . Should they survive, can they survive, deserve to survive? Others can debate that. Count them out as done forever? I wouldn't be so sure of that. Not the same of course but many thought just recently that SCV wouldn't return, let alone so fast. I'm hopeful
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1 hour ago, greg_orangecounty said:
Having raised 4 kids and now watching my grandkids grow up, there is a BIG difference in emotional maturity between a 14/15-year-old and an 18-year-old – generally speaking. An 18-year-old is much more equipped mentally and physically to be able to deal with, report, and say no potential physical, mental, and sexual abuse – be it member to member, or instructor to member. It wouldn’t solve the problem in its entirety, but it would remove the most vulnerable from the clutches of the pervs that continually infect the activity.
In retrospect, what were/are we thinking? Packing busloads of children, hormonal teenagers, and young adults, together for weeks at a time on the road cross-country in close quarters without much, if any parental supervision.
And we wonder why this keeps happening.
Not disagreeing but I'll push back a bit..the 15/16 year old is far different than we were BITD...but I'll also say there is a huge part of the other side leaving staff out that present issues which many seem to forget. AS I said whatever side presents bad behavior should be illuminated no matter who it is. THIS falls on the shoulders of the director and should at all times have eyes in every direction at all times.
Youre right...what were we thinking but different times. We weren't thinking
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37 minutes ago, Vuitton said:
This has been happening since the 70s. There is no fairness in competition, and corps are forced to spend massive amounts of money to try and win. The list of corps who folded because of spending to try and win is massive. I don't know how anyone could look at the number of corps and the decreasing audience and say this activity isn't dying. And, yes, it is a decreasing audience. There are around 20-25k people at finals, and a good 6,000 or so are participants. That's less than when I marched over 30 years ago. DCI doesn't help this. The corps should not be running DCI.
You could be right BUT corps won't give that up . DCI was formed by the corps to get away from the confines of the past ( AL, VFW ) and to decide their own direction, That's why most will say DCI is the corps, and it is from inception.
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1 hour ago, greg_orangecounty said:
Raising the minimum age to 18 wouldn't solve the problem of sexual abuse completely, but it would help. Hate to have to do it, but under the circumstances I'd be all for it.
But what would 18 do. Allegedly the accusations were made by many over 18 but still members. What people don't talk about much is member to member issues or member doing their hardest to get to some staff. Now one can easily say staff should know better which would be a very true statement BUT remember some staff can also be very young. If there are those who believe this part is rare is only fooling themselves. I've seen it and had to deal with it not just in the summer but on the WGI level.
It is a directors job to NOT just leave things to staff to watch ( which can be the cat watching the canary ) but to put their foot down and be willing to lose either a staff person or a member who doesn't comply with the rules in EVERY aspect. A good director isn't just a figure head to make speeches and pep talks but one who serves, and protects all involved and the integrity of the corps or winter programs. JMO
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6 minutes ago, Slingerland said:
Muchachos and Crossmen both were busted of rules violations regarding age of members, something that was clearly spelled out in DCI's charter. Might as well say "Regiment got a .1 penalty in 1978, but DCI looked the other way on sexual predators." One thing has nothing to do with the other. DCI was not given the right or the responsibility by its founders to mandate background checks of corps staff in the 1970s/80s/90s. You can say "that was stupid" and you'd be right, but the fact is, no one else in American society in that period was background checking either, for anything besides criminal pasts.
This is true...Although it was NEVER acceptable for sexual abuse what was acceptable back 20 ,30 ,40 years ago is a whole different thing than today. Often, some will apply today' s standards to what may have been acceptable yesterday . I have found in many aspects ( not this particular subject ) some will do this. Different world , different times different standards , the good or bad of that. Even what may be considered abuse was not considered abuse then, example ( staff to member dating ) etc.
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1 hour ago, spacewill said:
DCI WACO just added to the schedule. @Hook'emCavies may have to drive a little north if the Houston show doesn't get flushed out. Cavies will be in WACO.
The Gaines Family ( Fixer Upper Fame, Magnolia network etc.) will be happy. More income..lol....Im sure many will visit their many enterprises . Me, I have had enough of Texas in many ways, no offence to my buddies there.😁
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1 minute ago, Vuitton said:
They could make a lot of things uniform. The top corps are the ones with power and things always work out in their favor. They care little for the activiity as a whole and only care about remaining at the top.
Performance fees
Performance order
Budgets
It's al geered towards keeping the lower corps down and keep the top corps in the top. Remember when Boston protested the G7. Well now Boston is one of those selfish corps.
Well they are all signing their own death warrant. The amount of money these corps spend to stay at the top is not sustainable, and Vanguard and Cadets are proof of that. This is just the beginning.
I sometimes wish the lower tier corps would break from DCI and form their own circuit in which fairness in competition and overall health of the activity were the overridding principles.
This has been said from the beginning of the activity. Decades we heard how this or that wasn't fair, how focus was in the wrong place, how a section of a corps wasn't given enough respect or numbers, how the little guy doesn't get a chance, Why does a corps need to do this or that, how THIS ISN'T DRUM CORPS. Every decade has said some form of this about another. Maybe it's just human nature.
AS far as lower corps breaking from DCI all that will do is create lower tier elites, the few who dominate, the ones who get the butts in the seats, the one.s who set the tone, etc etc...it's all the nature of competition, fair? maybe, maybe not others could argue that ( and there will always be those ). JMO
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29 minutes ago, BG984 said:
Sorry, but I am not hung up on "just 16 years ago"....I am not going to write a big thing, but in effect, especially those judges with visual/guard backgrounds, have given many questionable results over the years. I never stated that I think GE should simply be a "crowd o meter" of audience reaction........that said, if the judges are going to be oblivious to audience reaction and only respond to what they like as an individual, then they need to rename the caption, or it should not even be scored/utilized any more. The main just of my article (which has pretty much been left alone, because the numbers speak for themselves) is that in a 6 year time frame, the 30% scoring edge in music was whittled to zero. As I and others have pointed out, these things had to be voted on and approved by the directors. Do we have better shows as a result of these changes? Some will say yes, some will say no.......but the move away from musical emphasis is undeniable.
Now that goes back to the beginning of the activity and BITD sometimes with a violent response.....lol
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1 hour ago, Vuitton said:
Perhaps, but that lack of fairness keeps the top corps the top corps, and everyone is trying to be a top corps. What's the quickest way to get there? SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! If you don't spend you don't perform in the last group all the time.
There are plenty of other activities that have rules in place that beneit the activity as a whole and create fairness in competition. DCI lacks fairness. It does? How can any one argue otherwise?
NM🙂
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8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
and in many cases an educational system that has things set up from elementary on up
Yes, for sure!
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5 hours ago, Tim K said:
I would like to go to BOA Grand Nationals one day, but this time of year is a bit too hectic for me to get away.
A friend who I see in Indy each year goes to BOA shows regularly believes the football program is a reason why there are schools that field phenomenal bands, at least those schools were football in king. His theory is that schools with excellent football programs want the entire school to be excellent. The cheerleaders have to be better than the opposing team, the band has to be better, more fans have to travel to away games and the stands need to be overflowing at home games. It seems like many of these super-bands are from the south and my only experience of Texas football is watching reruns of “Friday Night Lights” so I have no idea how accurate his theory is, but it makes sense.
Regarding scandals, my guess is there can be as much drama in competitive bands as there would be in drum corps, but scandals are probably fewer because there is a clear chain of command. The staff and volunteers report to the band director who reports to the music department head who reports to the principal who reports to the superintendent who reports to the state and school committee. There are also laws regarding volunteer background checks for staff and volunteers as well as strict protocols that may also be law.
Quick story on Football teams. I have been lucky enough to be part of some band programs on the east and west coast. $$$$$ mostly no object. Once in the north east in October ( cold ) the band was practicing on huge parking lot marked up like a field and thousands of dots , well it was raining a bit and cold and some football players left the field to the parking lot where the band was doing a run through and they stopped for a minute and an arrogant football kid said to a little tiny freshman girl " Are you nuts, why are you doing this" I was near by and heard it, and her answer to the big ole player was " maybe if you worked as hard as us you might win something " I didn't even have to step in. ..it said a lot!...lol
Oh Yeah , she might have called him a big ole WUSS to his face......lol
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2 minutes ago, OldSnareDrummer said:
I don't know why I don't follow bands much. I should. They look like drum corps, sound like drum corps, have all of the pageantry and precision of drum corps minus much of the scandals and controversy of drum corps (from what little I do know anyway).
Some things I do not know about competitive bands that maybe someone can fill me in on.
Where do they get all these kids? My high school had 2500 students we'd be lucky to get 40-50 even remotely interested in band and marching band was the lowlife of the HS music world. Do they rehearse one show or do they have football game type shows and competitive shows? Are the staffs for these super large bands as large as corps? Where do they come from? All volunteer?
Yes to all your questions...Success breeds success..and $$$$$$$$$$ and often the $ don't come from the school but a great parent organization raising necessary funds
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22 minutes ago, 2000Cadet said:
If people truly wanted answers, they'd go to the source. And even when the source gives answers to their questions, some people either don't feel that answer is good enough, or they will come up with their own assumptions and conclusions based on what is provided.
I also have avoided saying this because it can start a whole other topic and controversy, BUT I have thought about just your title " What is wrong with us" to me anyway it is a very profound title and at least for me says a lot about the world today. I find myself asking the same daily for the past several years.
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Cadets and bankruptcy
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
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agree