GUARDLING

100% incorrect.....again you look at 1 things verses the entire package. You don't just judge by one moment.

Yes bur you are focused on 1 thing NOT an entire picture. It's not how judging works, nor should it be. Clearly you want to prove some point but to me it doesn't make sense . When judging you take everything into consideration not one thing bad or even good. Lets flip this, if a group has an amazing moment, does it make then the better group? Maybe yes maybe no.

Youre back to believing that a 20 means perfect..it doesn't and never has....and were back...lolYou have to look at the entire production and whoever is #2 what did #1 have even with a major flaw puts them above. Now when you get to that one can disagree with who was better ( as people do ) forever. ( and do also ..lol )

I can understand totally how you feel the way you do. Even decades of teaching and judging I have questions. For me it is a constant and never-ending learning process. Just a thought though, the comparison to the world of gymnastics or even may other judged comparisons, that's 1 person to gain back momentum with drum corps there are 164 others to rise above even an obvious error. Multiple captions can also do it including the show as a total can do it . All I can do is explain from my point of view. Is it a flawed system, yes, the best we can do as a judge is judge from a standpoint of providing solid commentary to actually help a group and as a teacher LISTEN to those offering ways to make your product better. But I actually do understand how you feel the way you do and I'm probably not explaining my view good enough.

What I will say because sometimes debates like this can go in circles and go nowhere page after page is that at the top level, mid level and even lower level corps can be so close in almost all areas. That can mean an extremely high level or even have some of the same issues at a lower level. Thanks as always for the conversation. I actually do enjoy it 😊

HMMMM i dont think i was ever told or encouraged to do anything except be accountable. With that said BITD it mostly had to do with the dumb saying of " I saw it as I called it, end of story " no accountability and very much as subjective as today , if not more. Were corps less consistent ? Yeah probably, to the point of some of the crazy things one night to the next? I don't think so..Again my observation and experience and opinion. I do remember way more than 2 point difference some times..lol I would also agree when you have human judging there will always be the happy , the unhappy , the skeptical, the conspiracy"s and of course at times even the dishonest. I guess it always has come with the territory I would agree corps are so consistent today and hard to separate, not just at the top but the middle groups and even lower groups I do agree with #1 always been far from " Perfect"....see what i did there?...lol....thanks for the conversation. Always nice to talk, debate with one who may have had a different experience or at least saw it different BITD or did I just assume...lol...If I did...sorry

I've judged and taught under both.....they do. I'll use them as I always have as a tool as well as commentary .( when teaching ) Always proved useful over the years But of course you are always entitled to your own opinion😁

they do but never mean perfect

the fall although obvious may not equal deficits in other areas of competitors. It's never black or white. Again, even a so-called perfect score never means perfect. Do we actually believe any corps no matter who is a 99 plus? hmmmmmmmm

😁 All maxing out means is better than those ever so close behind. Maxing out now or ever never meant flawless...this again?....lol😁.....JK

Yes , youre right, it can be...parameters isn't always a bad thing though,,,then again one has to follow them , so it's back to maybe a whim within guidelines..lol.....no real answer maybe especially when human judging is involved😊

Although BITD the tic system was also subjective and a mess there was no consistency. Some loved the excitement BUT there also was no accountability , A corps could win by 2 points one night and be in 4th the next. Often it had nothing to do with the corps but the whim of a judge. Corps themselves choose the way they are judged or how they sheets are interpreted. Consistency can be a way a corps know what to do next or what to work on. Without some sort of " consistency " corps can be out there lost, especially lower placing corps who maybe need the most help or guidance. Can it go to the extreme, which might be what you are saying..YES, I would agree it could. Now I am by no means saying things can not flip around a bit BUT being a part of both systems all I can say is " Careful what you ask for"...lol

No judgement here😁

So True...lol...BUT you can find dinos of all ages . I know 20 somethings that are Dinos and 70 year olds far from being a Dino. Dino membership doesn't discriminate...lol

Funny, I just had this conversation with someone today. We all agreed with this part of this and your example of OC

One has to respect a young person who makes a choice and follows through with it, one way or another. I have seen way to many times corps and winter programs with many feeling because of their talent that they are entitled to march , summer or winter. I have seen programs go down in flames because of this. Now the program is also at fault because of many reasons also including searching for those bodies and some good hearted programs who want to help and often get burned in the long run. Personally , and JMO I have wanted those who were also great talents turn down a contract because they decided something else was more important OR they knew they could never financially support their desire. Now did I like it? No! but have to respect a young person who realizes maybe they can't do everything and hard choices have to be made. Life lessons Also huge respect for those ( like you said )who found ways to WORK for what they wanted🙂

Even more! I have a relative that spent over 3 grand for their 6 year olds dance classes, a bumble bee costume , dancing bee recital...lol ( used once ) some sparkle thing ( another costume , also once used ) Then their son for summer camp last year, lets just say it rivals drum corps.

completely understand🙂

You can explain away till one is blue BUT if only part of what was said wants to be heard there's no point , then you have to agree to disagree. BUT I do agree that the word perfect does not have a place in the conversation either today or even BITD Murrey74 also made some points but i guess instead of making a point and move on it becomes a back and forth not necessary. One can always disagree with a judgement or outcome. I made my points, maybe not clear enough so time to move on .🙂

you're picking and choosing what you want to hear...so no point. Why not respond to rmurrey, they were there

lol..ok....obviously it's not

But you dont know what or why they did and the questions they had to ask themselves to determine a higher score I'm not even saying said judge was right with their score BUT am saying the situation can happen and it's just not as simple as it may seem to some.

Your 1st sentence is exactly right and what I mean. except you are ignoring all the other factors and just looking at 1 part of it. Was group A really in all aspects exactly equal to group B..before the error? One can say yes OR that can be debatable.

it seems like you are hooked on the word " Perfect" as I said it doesn't mean perfect, and as much as we BITD when we achieved that maxed out score of course we said we were " Perfect" now were we? I don't think so. Get passed that word perfect and just look at it as the highest score compared to others and it's easier to understand. Now I'm not saying in the case you mention that the right group was on top, things like that can be debated till the end of time.

Possible? we have heard those conspiracy theories for as long as drum corps has been in existence. With that said. One can have a better show and not win due to all the other factors and one can have a less than perfect show and come out on top. Many sub-captions can affect overall decisions when putting a score down and most certainly affect other scores. Take for instance a drop or a fall like you said. Did the fall contribute to other issues at the moment? Did the error affect what was being presented? Did the error destroy whatever the effect was that they were trying to achieve? Did the error domino issue after issue. Sometimes it can often at that high skill level it doesn't. I think we have a mindset from decades and decades ago that something like a minor mistake or a drop or fall excludes a corps from success ( and it did BITD) and it certainly can but it doesn't necessarily have to, depending on some of the other factors I mentioned.