[When one judge calls the show]

55 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

When you have 2 groups at the very top neck and neck, something like a big fall should be a factor in the outcome. The fact that the group that had the major mistake still got a perfect score in visual IMO is wrong.

I wouldn't care if the perfect score was in GE visual, but it makes no sense that the only perfect score of the night happened to be in visual performance and it happened to go to the group where there was a major fall.

if all things were completely the same and equal you would be right and it could make a difference, BUT if they aren't even slightly then yes even a fall could render a so called perfect score, well actually not perfect but the highest score. Remember judges only work with so many numbers which is why maxing a number out doesn't mean perfect only that you run out of numbers.

Not debating who should have been higher than another just how it possibly could happen. Also a " Major " error or mistake may not be considered major if it didn't contribute to other issues at the moment.

[When one judge calls the show]

3 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

We've been over this  😀

😁

[When one judge calls the show]

3 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

Right!?  Where's the Tic system when you need it. 

Dead where it should be. Talk about subjective and a hot mess...OMG..lol

[When one judge calls the show]

2 hours ago, ContraFart said:

How on gods green Earth did RCC have one judge give a perfect visual score, WHEN A BASS DRUMMER FELL ON HER A$$??????? By definition it was not a perfect performance. 

Because the highest score doesn't mean perfect, never did, it's just who was the best. When you get toward the top, numbers are scarce and a perfect score as I said NEVER meant perfect, although those who have got them love to say" Perfect"..lol

[Vanguard CEO resigns]

18 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

It's def not a myth. It's just not one sided either.

2003.

💖 Love this and thank you too. Just imagine my surprise putting all this together in the last year.

2003 another fav or mine, I remember seeing them the 1st time and the color from the guard..LOVED it! Add a few more things and I still think that guard book would stand up today. JMO😁

BTW..nothing IMO is ever 1 sided and peoples experiences can be very personal.

[Vanguard CEO resigns]

58 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

NP. 👍🏽

Because I loved it. And still do.

Because my HS teacher was a very good educator and Cavie champion who designed many of our shows after SCV's: Red Poppies, Carmen, RCM, Tenderland. I loved SCV before I'd even heard of them. And I became an educator and professional dancer as a direct result of my time with them.

And because I care a lot about the alum. Even when they disagree.

Thanks. So sorry but I had to ask and just interacting from time to time with you I had to believe there was maybe more good than bad that kept you there. Now I'm not saying it washes over any bad just that the SCV many of us loved and admired over the years was not a myth. Not perfect, flawed for sure, hard to live up to ones own reputation ( happens in most things )Maybe bad choices and the tarnishing by some individuals floating in and out. Did you march any other years other than those which weren't so good for you?

Thanks again. By the way, the Red Poppy was one of my favorite SCV shows along with many others including what I think was the very underrated Devils staircase 2011

 

[Vanguard CEO resigns]

1 hour ago, scheherazadesghost said:

I'm just sorry to read about your and your son's experiences. It never should have been that way.

My final three interactions with the org as a young person in 05, 06, and 08 were also quite unpleasant. You'd think I could take a hint.......

Ultimately, how can we learn from the past if we refuse to accept that something(s?) unpleasant happened... or seemingly refuse to show respect to, and care for those who brought it up in good faith? I'm gathering that the tendency across the industry is for admin to listen to stories like yours and mine as few times as possible just to say they did, then improve their policies and procedures on their own, and never acknowledge us again. I'm still waiting to hear back from two higher placing corps when they assured me they would do so in Dec/Jan, for example.

This should all be Golden Rule-level stuff. The only corps I've interacted with that's come close to getting it right is SoA. On the other end of things, Vanguard hasn't updated its whistleblower policy since your son marched.

I gotta ask.....Sorry......If it was so bad I can understand maybe giving it another shot( Maybe ) but a 3rd? Not judging but wondering what was it that brought you back, again , again and again, Something had to be good. Just curious, believe me not judging at all.

[Weather or not]

12 hours ago, Chief Guns said:

I might be wrong, but wasn't there also a pretty violent storm that ripped thru Indy Finals night 2015 or 2016?

To be honest I don't remember weather reports before that tragic day in 2011 nearby BUT do remember almost every year after with warnings. 

[Weather or not]

1 hour ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Iirc part of DCI’s spiel to us old timers re LOS was that the roof would be open if possible.   Has it ever been open for a DCI event?

I remember clearly in 2011 if the roof had been open, what a disaster it would have been. An announcement NOT to go near exits and the collapse of a stage due to a sudden violent deadly storm not far away.

[Weather or not]

1 hour ago, Chief Guns said:

Personally I think middle of the night practices could work, but we all know there will always be that "One Neighbor" that lives in vicinity of the school that will complain for the sake of complaining. 

2019 High school football season out here in SoCal, some neighbor called the police to have a varsity game shutdown because it was around 10:45pm, the game went to Overtime, and the person had a problem with the cheering and bands playing etc. Obviously they lost that battle and the game proceeded. 

I also remember a few years back, some neighbor that lives on the hill near RCC (Riverside Community College) complained about the stadium lights shining into her bedroom and she couldn't sleep. That was also after 10pm.

Quote

Not everyone shares the passion of Drum Corps. If one doesn't abide by reasonable local rules rehearsal sites will become even more scarce. 

Even being born into the activity I don't think I would want to hear it middle of the night...lol

 

[Jersey Surf Announces Revised Plan for 2023 DCI Summer Tour]

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

the thing is, going OC kills them financially. the money is in WC, even a reduced schedule. i know taking that time off in July last week saved them a fortune in bus fees, fuel, housing and food. yeah it hurt them competitively. to score well, you need the early start and the commitment to going all out to place well...and that's probably what people feel is holding Surf bak....that commitment to being a top dog isn't evident. 

 

the key is finding a balance. Look at Colts...15 years out of finals, but yet always kinda near the top 12, with a good sized corps doing the full tour. Troop too. while going OC could help Surf with scoring, financially it would be a huge issue.

A tough position to be in...On one hand as you say the money, on the other hand members and retention. The culture an mindset could be great for some an not enough for many, as they have continuously have experienced. As I said, it has to only be their choice and with every choice there is always a consequence no matter who you are.

[Jersey Surf Announces Revised Plan for 2023 DCI Summer Tour]

5 hours ago, MikeZ said:

Yes, I agree with the above statement. And granted it is hard to discern tone from text on a screen, but my initial reaction was that the quoted person was not a fan of Jersey Surf.

I am a huge fan of Surf and feel they provide an experience that is missing in world class drumcorps at the moment. On the surface, it appears Surf is taking the  necessary steps to ensure the long term heath of the organization is strong. Maybe there is stuff going on behind the scenes I am not aware of, or maybe the original poster has some inside info that makes them aware of why the press release is a bunch of hogwash.

Regardless, I just want Surf to survive and keep providing a scaled down version of a world class experience for those in the north east that cannot deal with the time commitment of a Boston or Cadets. Go Surf!

Z

I would totally agree that I would like Surf survive also. with that said I also know being friendly with many staff that the very thing that makes Surf unique could also be their Achilles heel. As far as I know all staff respect the format and heart of the organization but are also the 1st to admit (especially behind the scene) it is the very thing that holds them back, whatever that means. If one accomplishes a goal, then I believe that's not holding back at all, It's a choice to be who you are and set their own goals.

Surf needs to be respected for their choice to be who they are and their contributions to the activity. Now should they be a WC corps? would they shine more in OC? Would they retain more members maybe with OC success? or many other considerations, people can and do I'm sure debate this BUT that is and should be totally up to them only. All we, IMO should do is wish them luck.

[Jersey Surf Announces Revised Plan for 2023 DCI Summer Tour]

20 minutes ago, MikeZ said:

Wow. Dude really isn't a fan of Jersey Surf.

 

Z

I think you can be a fan of a corps but not of the process or message. Haven't we seen this of many corps.

[Just an idea, SCV]

5 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

I think the lot thing as opposed to sitting in the stands to watch and support the smaller corps is more about being seen, than seeing.  Lot's of preening and look at my corps jacket.  

I would do it too, honestly, but my corps jacket doesn't.......fit. 

oh you are so right...on both accounts 😁

[Just an idea, SCV]

3 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Heard. And I was a lot-to-SCV-only audience member last season so I'll take that on the chin. In my case, I was taking a respectful, but highly critical look at my own corps's underpinnings in the lot. And that is proving to have been a better use of my time, given the hiatus. That time is now very sacred, precious, and irreplaceable to me. But my experience seems to be an outlier though, so I take this as an excellent point overall.

I would only nudge back to say that if the big dogs genuinely wanted to invest in sustainability and longevity of the activity as a whole, then appearance fees should be split evenly, no matter who brings more folks to the yard. This is a downside of the competitive nature of the industry, it endures beyond the actual competition when perhaps it shouldn't. Especially if they fees are as paltry as this thread is leaving me to believe, relative to other revenue streams. They're hoarding crumbs.

This is where I believe more professional presenter experience outside of the industries might be helpful. In dance and theater, if you don't like how audiences are reacting to the format, you change the format. The presenter makes that call and the performance groups have to accept the new show order or they don't perform. In this way, why not intermix the varying levels, and interrupt the grind of competition?

TY for this. So, if fees are small anyway, then it should be easy to split them evenly as a gesture of good faith and will?

Ok, in VMAPA's 990 from 2020 here's what I see:

Gov grants: 302k

"All other contributions, gifts, grants, and similar amounts not listed above": 245k

Parades, Contests: 10k

Investments: 45k

Net income from gaming: 2.4 M ((hard to call this a side hustle!!))

Misc: 61k

Grants are low in comparison to best practices which recommends 20% of your overall budget be covered by them. That total's higher than I expected tho.

Parades, Investments, and Misc, I don't have much to say. Every little bit helps, but I'm hoping not too much people power was used to generate revenue there. That would indicate a little waste.

Assuming that "all other contributions..." means member fees, that feels percentage-wise reasonable I suppose. But again, I'd argue that relying on your primary internal stakeholder for that giant chunk is not sustainable or an effective application of the NP model. This number probably also includes fundraising efforts, which, if it does, then I'm more concerned. Just looking back at the American Dance Festival's example I provided earlier, their top tier of corporate sponsors alone were bringing in $500k for a comparable budget. With hundreds of others listed as donors in subsequent tiers. So again, I'd argue that drum corps, for some reason, are offloading the work of nurturing other standardized NP revenue streams onto their primary internal stakeholders. No bueno in the charity world, amigos.

Other ways of approaching and calculating finances in the NP space:

https://warrenaverett.com/insights/nonprofit-ratios/

https://thefundraisingauthority.com/strategy-and-planning/analyzing-fundraising-strategies/

supporting your corps is totally understandable . As far as $$$ ,it might be a thing of chicken and egg Believe me wGI only got it that $ were all coming from the lower , especially HS class. Fees over fees over fees and hundreds of them. 

For finals at least they do have the HS class and independent classes within the same show. Short story: several years ago I went to the head of WGI at WC finals about how could they sell tickets to HS and other classes and the seats were backside which is fine BUT a huge black curtain totally blocking any view. This really didn't affect me because my guard was in the WC finals but felt the need to say something for them, well the answer was " at least they are in the building if they don't like it there was several doors they could leave by...I was floored! I think They learned alot since then

[Just an idea, SCV]

2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

And I have said this what seems like millions of times.

When DCI places corps into an essentially immutable placement order and segregates top corps from bottom corps (and for decades, it was the stated mission of DCI to segregate intentionally "to showcase the top corps"), more fan attention will go to the top corps by design.  The fans are not to blame for that.  If you are looking to place accountability, go to the second word in this paragraph.

well I guess the corps dont  seem to have value on their own then...I could agree that maybe  making it a little easier for fans to support BUT lets face it, evenBITD you always heard about the hot dog corps sadly. Not a new thing or problem BUT in that respect DCI should have figured it out long before  now how to make it easier for the fans as well as a great supportive experience for those kids.

[Just an idea, SCV]

4 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

A class gets token representation at the table tho. Top 3 only unless that changed  for A and open but every world class finalist gets a seat.

 

and there’s an open class sow within reasonable driving distance from me this summer and 4 months out tickets still aren’t available yet. I check daily as I’m ready to hit the button 

thats great unfortunately not everyone is like you. More of what I said and saw 1st hand....................I thought that was you with your hot dog and popcorn....lol

 

 

[Just an idea, SCV]

2 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

😎 Luckily my pain threshold is high and my love for this activity is more fierce than it has been in years. Finding Nirvana just made me cry again, lol, I'm a sap.

And I'm appreciating our dialogue.

TY for this. Crucial legacy info there that my gen and younger may not know.

💯 Heard. My home corps pride almost led me to say "cHaMpiOnZ dEsErVe BeTteR!!1!" but even that's the wrong mentality. Every corps of all levels of skill and achievement deserve more than $0 for performing. It sets a bad precedence. (And trust, I've done plenty of those unpaid gigs in my day as a contemporary dancer...for exposurelol. Talk about another exploitive NP industry I found myself in. )

My understanding is that the DCI BoD would need to approve that pretty hefty change, and it would require the top 20 to give up some of those appearance fees. Is that right? I've always been for the big and little dogs getting even shares.

Ive said it millions of times but worth saying it again. People need to put their butts in seats for the smaller corps instead of complaing.$$$$$ will always speak louder. OC members literally play to nothing.....often. Some have said that the sched. and place doesn't allow for people to get to. Well that may be true now but wasn't always like that. Even where some smaller corps appear with the so called big guys people file in for the biggies and spend the other time in the lot ( which i never understood) 

WGI HS A class never had a say BITD until WGI figured out that it was where the money was in fees etc etc.Worldclass may fill the arena but the little guys fund the activity the entire year. Let the little guys show $$$$$$ you watch how fast equal status follows.

[High School Band Directors and Drum Corps]

13 minutes ago, PopcornEater1963 said:

Just throwing out a question as i prepare to get involved with the leadership of a drum corps. 

For High School Band Directors... do you "forbid" your marching band members to participate in DCI? Do you "encourage" your marching band members to participate in DCI? Do you have a "case by case" policy that relies on the attitude of the individual kid in question? Have you seen returning kids be a positive? A negative? Do you have enough data to relate the ratio of "positive experiences" to "negative experiences"? 

I know the "war stories" in general. And i'm operating from a premise that the "risk is worth the reward" to allow high school marchers participate understanding that the risk is they may return to the high school marching band with an attitude of "superiority" and "negativity". 

What say you DCP?

YES! all of it........Sorry I know that wasn't helpful BUT like with anything you do see it all.

[Confessions from a DINO]

12 hours ago, Sutasaurus said:

Care to expound? It was new territory at the time and it took many corps to catch on to the “ new wave”.

I get what you're saying, and you are also right. BITD it did take time for some to catch the new wave, especially when they saw caption score or not, on the sheets or not, certain guards were changing the activity, influencing all captions, visually stimulated, took some great music and visually brought it to life. If it was actually said or not the influence guards started to contribute went both ways. Still does. It eventually ( as we see ) brought the rest of the corps into new visual possibilities.

[Confessions from a DINO]

9 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:

I'm not saying anything profound, just that guards had an impact on the scoring sheets and overall perception - good or bad - even though they didn't have their own scoring caption.  Your corps and 2-7 are examples of the positive.  There is one example (BITD) in which a corp was held back from placing higher - maybe even winning(?) - because their guard was less than pedestrian.   

This is actually true. IF something can influence to the positive it sure can to the negative. 

[Confessions from a DINO]

11 hours ago, Jurassic Lancer said:

No argument from me! Our guard kicked ###! But, at the same time, George Zingali was also changing the paradigm of drill, so that helped as well.   

He was a mentor  BITD Boy can I tell some stories...lol...I was in the horn line of a corps for many years then guard for a few but remember him telling me " here's the future, jump on that train " and I did

[Confessions from a DINO]

2 hours ago, ironlips said:

Regarding this, by scheherazadesghost, "the judging professionals as a group would need to maintain some control over the process...":

There are judges on the task force and they can make recommendations, but ultimately they work for the associations (DCA/DCI) whose individual corps managements are the ones who vote on rules.

The judges must adhere to those decisions to remain on the "approved" list and be assigned to contests.

I am often amused when people say "Shows are written to please judges, to give them what they want." Not really so.

Exactly! 

[Confessions from a DINO]

16 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

it is amazing that the guard score was not part of the total score until 2000

Score wise YES, caption wise yes, BUT ever since the 70s many didn't believe how the guard influenced ALL scoring and was important. Let's face it (for those who want to believe) Can anyone truly say 27s guard didn't influence the outcomes of that corps. They sure did, believe it or not, Same could be said of PR and many others of the time.

[I was the Board Treasure for SCV for 6 years]

41 minutes ago, 84BDsop said:

Y'know the most shocking thing about all this?

 

SCV didn't take the "traditional" path to ceasing operations like so many others have -- gradually falling down the rankings until they fell out of finals and the closing the doors (27th, Bridgemen Suncoast, Freelancers, Sky Ryders, Magic,VK, etc)

They were in the top 5 since 2012, including a championship, then boom, gone.  

SCVC?   How many orgs folded a unit the year after that unit WON??

Talk about a house of cards collapsing.

As much as I do not want to see SCV go away, and I don't, I think they need to be commended for NOT doing like many others have. How many corps have we seen not finish a season. not have money or resources to feed their corps on tour, beg other corps for help and one can go on and on. Hoping they make a comeback.at some point.