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skywhopper
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Posts posted by skywhopper
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they have to line up a sound that can come out of speakers several feet in front of them with the sounds made behind them on the field, and they have to also be aware of the fact that pressing the button isn't instant sound, there's also a very small space between "push" and "sound". While most of today's modern ensembles can't take a #### without Dr Beat guiding them through, you can't use the good Doctor during a show, so a tempo may push or pull in the heat of the moment. so basically for them, they have to separate fly #### from pepper on the fly in respect to timing.
yeah not hard at all
I guess that explains why so many of the synth parts use painfully slow-attack patches.
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I definitely agree that many synth parts are challenging. My own example of the button-press being next to no achievement related to triggering sampled voice, for which the timing is rarely as critical as musical tones. And certainly the Bluecoats' use of electronics is extremely effective, and likely require special techniques on the part of the synth player that go well beyond the norm.
That said, I'm skeptical that synth players face timing issues any more challenging than what any other corps members confront (especially the guard who are literally waving a flag to emphasize their timing or lack thereof), except probably in the Bluecoats' show. And the technique they are asked to display--in my observation of many, not all corps--generally pales in comparison to other members of the pit. #notallcorps of course. This is no diss on the synth players, who are clearly very talented. Just that the designers are not featuring their skills in the same way they do more traditional instruments.
Teal Sound's guitar player is another good example of an electronic instrument being used well. That guy was very talented and I felt the guitar was extremely well utilized for a large portion of the show in their last full year IIRC.
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my big issue is the new trend of samples playing during section features in drum breaks, covering up the section features!
The first piece of the Cavaliers' encore at Murfreesboro was to play a dance track over the PAs and have the battery play along with it. You could hear that the battery was tapping along, but certainly couldn't make out any detail of what they were playing. Mainly it felt like the Cavs saying "hey, check out this sick tune!" as part of their encore, which was really disappointing.
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BD is cleaner. Look at the recaps.
It does seem the judges feel that way, but Crown's show is certainly *clearer* if not cleaner.
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Just armchair drill designing here...
In the opening when the corps condenses down into random groupings before the first banner comes out...
What if they spelled out INFERNO ?
Better yet, what if all the members had on fire-resistant stunt suits and were ON FIRE?
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again..lol..what decade in time did adults not get judged for the shows they wrote.
I think there was a thread a while back where many asked the same thing or stated that adults have always been part of the equation.
What you say is true-- corps staff decides the drill, choreography, uniforms, guard equipment, music arrangement, etc. Completely non-corps-related adults manufacture the costumes, the equipment, the instrumetns, etc. Those things make up one part of the product that's judged on the field. But the larger part of the product is the execution of that design by the members. And whatever points you get from having good drill or nice uniforms pales in comparison to the points you get from members executing the drill and choreography. After all, if the execution is poor, then the design scores fall as well.
But electronics lets designers intrude into the performance of the design as well. A five second voice clip can be recorded by a non-member, loaded into a synth by a non-member, played through PAs set up by non-members and mixed live by non-members. The only thing a member is required to do is to press a button on a MIDI controller at the right moment. That amounts to a lot of impact on the performance with next to zero actual achievement on the part of a corps member. Compare that to the achievement of a corps member performing that voice section live.
There are many moments when the synth sound generated by a single member holding down a handful of keys on a keyboard generates more sound than the other ~100 musical-instrument-performing members on the field. And that sound was professionally designed ahead of time etc etc. As long as the keys are hit at the right time, there is no way to make a mistake or play out of tune. Even playing too loud or soft is out of the question, since the volume is controlled by a staff member off the field.
It's sort of like if you had robots out there doing the rifle tosses, and "controlled" by corps members pressing buttons on remote controls at the right moment. Sure you could get some really impressive and perfectly executed tosses going, and it might be more beautiful and better in every way than humans could ever achieve. But... what exactly would be gained? Would the show be better? Would the corps' missions be enhanced? Would the members learn something more? To me, a synthesizer is no different than a rifle-tossing robot. It just happens to be cheaper and more widely available at the moment.
To be sure, incredible member achievement can be made using a synthesizer (see Crown 2011), but making synth and other electronics such a large part of the tonal landscape and pre-recorded material in particular seems to be pretty antithetical to the ideals of DCI.
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This is the seventh year since electronics were introduced to drum corps and I feel like show designers and arrangers are starting to get a footing for how they want to use the tools electronic instrumentation affords to them. I'm curious what good and bad aspects fans (especially those who've only been following the activity for the past few years) see in this year's shows.
A few thoughts to kick off conversation (note, I've not been following all the corps since I used to rely on the Fan Network VOD, but I did see the Murfreesboro show live):
* Of the current top 8, the corps using electronics the best this year are Blue Devils, Bluecoats, and Crown: Blue Devils have always been the best at blending the hornline sound with the electronics since electronics were introduced. Bluecoats have been pushing the limits of what we expect to hear from the field. And Crown has the most restraint while still making effective use of electronics when it makes sense.
* Enough with the whistling wind sound effects.
* Recorded/sampled speech and singing almost never adds to a show, IMO. The PR speech samples this year seem particularly out of place and poorly integrated. I much prefer the corps members do the narration or singing (kudos to the Cavs singer this year who's a great showman) and be judged on their achievement. The Mandarins show in 2013 is a notable exception for me, but I'd like to hear when you think a recorded voice sample was better than if a corps member had been doing the singing or speaking. (I'm also curious about the legality of using sampled singing, which is clearly against the 2009 electronics rules, and I've never heard of any updates to those rules.)
* The synth patches designers are choosing to use are often terrible. This is an area where Blue Devils, Bluecoats, Crown, and Cadets are doing noticeably better than the other corps. SCV and Phantom in particular stood out to me as leaning heavily on really bad-sounding string patches to fill out their sound throughout their programs.
* In the Bluecoats show, are the loops from Electric Counterpoint sampled live, or are they just triggered by the synth players at the right time? If they are sampling the corps live, that would be truly impressive.
* Silence is golden. Blue Devils, Cadets, and Crown all made use of actual silence during their shows. Other corps seem allergic to the idea that silence or even quiet sections can add value to a show. Bluecoats are the worst about this of the top 8, with what felt like 12 minutes of aural assault. Well done aural assault, but exhausting in the end.
* In general, I feel like the vast majority of electronics usage represents design achievement and not member achivement. Pre-sampled voice, Bluecoats-style surround-sound effects, huge chords to give the brass a break, and soundscapes that require nothing more than a few keypresses seem like a devaluation of individual member achievement and numb the audience to the experience and sound of actual instruments. That's not to say electronics can't be and aren't used well, but they too often aren't and I wonder what the designers and judges are thinking sometimes.
I'm seriously curious what everyone thinks about the current state of the art in this regard. Some of the worst offenses of the early electronics years have been gotten past, but I feel like more and more of the sound coming from the field is coming direct from the designers via the speakers and less and less from the members themselves and I hope that trend doesn't go too much further.
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I actually see that lull section as more of the time between hell and earth. With that thinking, it makes sense to me why it's a bit of a lull as they try to finish that climb out of hell and burst out on the other side with the closer.
Indeed. In Dante's Inferno, the way they escape from Hell is via Satan's ########. So...
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I've been out of the loop and not following the corps this year until the last week or so, and the lack of the Fan Network hasn't helped, since I can't massage my schedule around the live streams. But anyway, after some Youtube prep, I saw the show at Murfreesboro accompanied by four adults (one new to drum corps) and four kids (three new to drum corps). All but one person said Crown was their favorite. One kid preferred the Blue Devils show.
I was mainly impressed by the clarity and focus of Crown's show. Sitting relatively low, the drill and formations weren't clear for any of the corps, and the guard work for most corps was often visually muddy and hard to follow, but Crown had a LOT of fantastic guard hits that felt crystal clear to me. Maybe it's the contrast of the uniforms with the field and the equipment. I don't know, but it was incredibly satisfying and felt like a different style of visual design than most of the other corps were pursuing. The props are a major force out there, and from down low they often made the field feel extremely cluttered. So Crown's lack of props was very refreshing.
I don't have time to talk about all the things I liked and the things I think they need to polish before Indy, but I just want to say the two best moments in the show were the release followed by a second or two of silence followed by the snap of the unison rifle catch, and of course the giant banner/flag after the opening statement. I'd seen that on Youtube, but in person that's just an amazingly effective visual effect.
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Congratulations to all the Crown members, staff, and volunteers who have made this season possible so far. It's a fantastic achievement to win any major regional and Crown has come a long way since early in the season. This is a fantastic show and it can totally win this year, but the competition is fierce, so keep striving!
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It's all of a piece with amplifying the pit, adding synths, upping the corps sizes, and amplifying soloists. I wonder if we can correlate the average volume of the corps to the average age (and implied hearing loss) of the corps staff and judges.
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What makes some of you people think that you can record a live stream for personal use? Are you not aware of the announcements made at live shows prohibiting the use of recording devices during shows for copyright reasons? What makes you think that watching a show online is any different?
Don't confuse assertions of rights with actual rights. Copyright holders regularly assert all sorts of rights they are not entitled to. The rule against recording a live performance is enforced by the venue's right to throw you out, not by the copyright holder's right to prevent you from recording the event.
However, even when copyright holders have a legal right to prevent something, that doesn't mean we should accept it unthinkingly. Copyright law is entirely created by governments, and changes to copyright law tend to take away rights we currently have, or are promised to have. Such as the repeated retroactive extension of existing copyrights.
There's currently a debate going on in Europe over whether architects hold the copyright to any images of the buildings they designed. In other words, they assert that tourists taking pictures of a city skyline should be considered to be violating copyright and forbidden from doing so. This is not currently law, but it's been proposed.
So beware of copyright holders and their assertions. DCI has made a pragmatic decision to avoid trouble in the form of a lawsuit, but that doesn't mean the rights-holders are in the right either legally or ethically.
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My question is: surely this does not affect shows containing only public domain music, or shows consisting of only music composed specifically for the corps (eg, most of the Cavaliers' 2000s shows) (at least, assuming the corps bought full rights to the work when they commissioned it, which may not be the case)?
I suppose such shows comprise a very small percentage of all shows, and thus would probably not be worth preserving on Fan Network in the absence of all the rest.
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Why do people continue to say this??? Do you REALLY think they will just "stop the narration" at this point?
Depends on how many people say "stop the narration!"
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I think it all depends on how it's executed and how it affects musical development of the end product. Crown 2009 was mentioned and it's a great example of both letting the source material follow it's own development (the Puck sequence is brilliant) and one of the most successful chop and bop sequences ever (the ballad mashup of Somewhere and Somewhere over the Rainbow). The 2009 ballad (along with 2008 and 2011 as well) is brilliant in the way it leaps seamlessly between the melodies without the jarring feeling you often get from chop and bop arranging.
Typically the worst case is when a musical climax is dropped in inappropriately for effect without appropriate buildup. The buildup doesn't necessarily have to be from the same piece but without a buildup of tension there's no payoff to the climactic moment.
Dropping in quotes of other pieces for color (like the Jetsons theme by BK) is always a nice touch, and it's not really the same thing at all.
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I think what you're saying about synth players is more insulting than anything else. It doesn't matter how complicated the synth parts are they ALWAYS require a high level of musicianship and performance quality to execute precisely every time. Not every synth player is a virtuoso but it doesn't mean they aren't talented or that what they are doing doesn't require skill!
Designers since the beginning have been an integral part of the activity. And how a show is designed, how the parts are written, are always on display and really the only reason we enjoy a performance. If the design is bad, the kids would not be able to show off anything so I don't see how bashing the designers gets your point across. The designers have been and will always be the most important element to getting the performers to show-off their skills in DCI.
Electronics are not just about dynamic manipulation. They also dramatically change the kind of sound qualities that are heard from the pit. Setting one level for an entire show would NOT allow for the entire dynamic and textual opportunities of the pit to be heard or be in balance with the rest of the corps. The electronics facilitate greater musicianship and dynamic control and are NOT used as a "crutch" for lazy designers/performers. If a pit does not have good balance/dynamics/touch no amount of amplification/electronic adjustments will make them sound better.
Maybe you don't understand that performers actually benefit from electronics and allow for them to TRULY show their stuff. And its surprising how you use Crown 2011 as a positive example of electronics enabling a performer while at the same time suggesting that electronics inhibit the performer...
I think you're reading things into what I said that aren't there. I'm asking that if we use electronics, let's use them well. In regards to Crown 2011, that was an excellent use of synth that required a talented pianist and provided him with a challenging part. However, the vast majority of synth usage out there today is *not* challenging for a skilled piano-keyboard player. I don't think it's insulting to ask that synth players are asked to be as proficient with their instrument as the brass players are.
As for the dynamics and amp levels, you and I have disagreed on this in the past. I've been unfortunate enough to sit near staff micromanaging the mix via radio from high in the stands. This is taking the blend and balance completely out of the hands of the pit performers. I think that blend and balance are a critical part of ensemble playing that is supposed to be judged in DCI competitions. But at least some corps do not leave this in the hands of their performers.
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Regardless of the show format ideas, the *website* for this show is the best I've ever seen by far. Kudos, garfield, to you or whoever on your team put this site together. This ought to be the standard to which all DCI show pages is held. Keep up the amazing work!
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I do think that for an activity that everyone claims is about the kids and how they perform, the increasing use of electronics and amplification for the most part actually takes away from the kids' chance to show their stuff. Pre-recorded narration, dead-simple synthesizer parts that overpower or replace the brass, soundboard guys adjusting the mix in real time. None of these things give the performers on the field an opportunity to demonstrate *their* skills. Instead, they are entirely about the skills of the designers.
For me, that makes the live performance itself less interesting and less vital. It takes away the performers' own sense of accomplishment. The larger part of a DCI performance these technologies become,the less the music is being produced by the members themselves. I cannot see how that trend is a positive change for the activity.
If you really want voice, let the kids do the narration live. If the pit needs amplification, set the levels during a pre-show soundcheck and then leave the dynamics to the performers. Want to use synth? Write a part that requires the same level of musicality and skill demanded of the brass and percussion players (see Crown 2011 for an appropriate example). Two-finger synth parts are an insult to the audience and the performer.
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Looks like the other six from the top 14 (except for Madison) each got to perform in a TOC show (or two in the case of Boston):
7/13 DeKalb, IL - no SCV, add Blue Stars
7/14 Warrensburg, MO - G7 only
7/18 Houston, TX - no Cadets, add Blue Knights
7/25 Nashville, TN - all of G7, add Boston (and Music City)
7/27 Charlotte, NC - no Bluecoats, add Spirit of Atlanta
7/31 Piscataway, NJ - G7 only
8/3 Buffalo, NY - no Phantom, add Troopers
8/4 Massillon, OH - no Blue Devils or Cavaliers, add Boston and Crossmen
Perhaps this was the compromise for adding an eighth TOC show? Boston gets two because Madison is not participating or...? And each of the G7 sit out one show, except Crown which gets to go to all eight.
Assuming that the TOC shows involve big payouts to the participants, this setup makes sense. Crown gets 8 shows worth. 2-7 get 7 shows worth. 8-14 get one show worth. All the finalists from the past few years are getting a bite at the apple, and you've got a majority of the active WC corps getting payouts from the TOC series... politically it seems like this was structured to keep TOC alive.
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Let it slide :)
Now that I know I qualify ... marched DC 10 years, taught guard and stuff, watched FN for last 4 years, attended 2 DCI finals.
I have an opinion, now where did I put it ...
I was not being serious when I blamed trombones. I think Facebook, Reddit, etc, satisfy most people's desires for drum corps chat and specialized message boards like DCP are on the decline across the board.
To be honest, though, trombones and french horns along with more voice, more samples, and more synths have made *me* less excited about this season, which has translated into less visiting and less engagement and less posting. The any-brass rule is not a major negative step, but it's just one more babystep towards the no-rules paradise envisioned for DCI that I'm not a fan of. That's all right, I'm at peace with it. But as someone pointed out the old guard fade away, and the new fans are not discovering or using DCP.
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I am curious if the number of postings on here has been lighter than previous years? If so, any reason why?
Yes.
Trombones.
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GO NEON TEAM!!!
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Haven't heard this year's SCV show, but while their Les Mis show was my favorite of 2013 and one of my favorite Vanguard shows ever, I remember feeling like there were some iffy spots in the brass arrangement. And the Planets show in 2012... seeing it live, it drove me nuts with all the power chords (ie tonic and fifth only), and musical flow-wise I thought the Planets show was pretty poorly done as well. So, I'm sad to hear of continuing issues in this department.
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Wait, I thought this thread was for complaining about trombones.
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Broken Arrow 18 July 2023 - the Show, not the Accident (nor the Movie)
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted · Edited by skywhopper
I was at the show last night after taking a break of a few years from DCI (since 2015). Overall impressions:
Music performance quality was incredible across the board. I realize these corps were all top 10-12 contenders, but compared to my memory of 8-12 years ago, the music is really in a great place for this point in the season. That said, I didn't recognize most of the music, either because it was a mashup of a lot of obscure pieces or because the arrangements were a lot more manipulated to check off all the required music achievement for the judges.
Visual on the other hand was a little sloppy from most of the corps. It was windy as heck so I'd give the guard some leeway on drops etc. But drill was not as clean as I would have expected from this tier. Non-drill visual was all really great. I like how things have evolved in that area.
I thought it was interesting that other than Cadets and Blue Devils, the corps' visual identities have completely gone away in favor of matching the show theme. Not sure how I feel about that... but mostly it didn't bother me, except when I had to triple check the lineup to remember which corps was coming on the field.
I was thrilled to see that for the most part the electronics, sampling, and amplification have gotten under control, with a couple of glaring exceptions.
Specific thoughts on the shows (I didn't take notes and hadn't seen the shows before last night so I don't have a lot of deep thoughts here):
Was really disappointed that Phantom didn't perform. Not sure what happened with the last minute cancellation. I hope the corps members are all okay. The heat was brutal earlier in the day (although by the time the show started it was almost pleasant).
Blue Stars had some of the best prop work. I was skeptical when I saw them rolling out, but they used everything well and it rarely felt cluttered. The big tubes were the most interesting. Loved the gradual uniform changes. Overall I was really impressed.
I have a huge soft spot for Carolina Crown, and I liked their show well enough, but nothing about it really popped. The round table props were interesting but didn't really get used for anything interesting that I remember. Music was fine, but nothing was particularly recognizable, and the constant minor key got a little old. Not sure if I missed the Crown drill set or if they aren't doing that anymore... Oh, and as a horn player the French horn features got me excited, but unfortunately they didn't really give the soloist anything interesting to play. The member played their part beautifully, but if you're featuring a horn on the field for a King Arthur show, maybe show off what a horn can do.
Cadets were interesting. I liked a lot of things about their show. Despite the athleisure style uniform, the Cadets identity shone through. The props were fun, although I wish they'd found more uses for them. The calisthenic visuals were really great; I wish there'd been more exploration of that because it felt pretty unique. I was hoping all the curved metal pieces were going to get assembled into a sphere at some point, and was disappointed that it didn't happen. But I did like how they used that equipment anyway.
Bluecoats were my least favorite show by a long shot. Extended spoken word audio samples are one of my least favorite design choices, and it was just painful to sit through that entire poem, and then have it repeated back in snippets at us throughout the show. I'll never understand the appeal of that sort of thing. A short spoken-word clip to set the scene can be done well, but extended samples are just painful. Let your members show us what *they* can do.
Anyway, sorry about that. As for the show itself, the visual design and props mostly just felt noisy to me. The big house thing was used in some interesting ways later, but the tarps and the other scenery just felt in the way. The guard executed really well, and when they played, the brass sounded fantastic, but... it sure felt like the brass played very little during this show, and often when they did it was overlaid with the audio samples or loud electronics. So loud that when the brass was playing by themselves, they sounded quiet. Also, while there were lots of great sounding brass solos, between the amplification of the soloists and the chaotic visual design, half the time I couldn't ever visually locate the soloists on the field, which is a real shame, IMO.
Boston had my favorite show of the night. The props were used incredibly well; the white whale and ocean visuals were great; this show had the most recognizable music. I loved the guard's uniforms. The story was well told, and the final scene of the destroyed boat was really well executed. Gorgeous solos during "On the Waterfront". Really enjoyed it, and I wish I could remember more specific things to call out.
Finally, Blue Devils. It was definitely a classic Blue Devils show in all the things that means: exquisitely crafted and executed to get the maximum score. Universally the music was well executed, the guard was well executed, the visuals were well executed. But the design choices were baffling. The music choices and arrangements were all over the place and disconnected moment to moment. Lots of scatter drill. Annoying extended French-language spoken word audio sample. Wayyyy too many props. Just visual chaos. I can't believe this is winning General Effect. All that said, the brass sounds incredible, and I'm glad at least one corps is still letting the trumpet squealers loose from time to time.
ANYWAY, in terms of the brass scoring, that's the caption I have the strongest opinions about; and as a horn player, I think I have some ability to judge it. And even though I'm a Crown simp, I have to say the judges got it right. Blue Devils had the best brass, followed by Boston, and then Crown.