gunther

Many thanks for highlighting the Wynn Center Toppers book. The many personal achievements of this corps are also shared by other corps of the area and the era. The influence of these many local/regional corps kept us kids out of trouble and off the dangerous streets. It also prevented a future of crime and jail which happened to kids within 30 days after quitting one of these corps. Besides, no local gang leader - including John Gotti & friends - would dare challenge any corps. We were larger, had instruments that doubled as weapons and had local members who knew where to find the gang people and made them suffer. One of the most severe criticisms damning the DCI global mentality is that it sought to destroy local corps and in succeeding, it also destroyed local values and integrity. The DCI geniuses also cut off the steady supply of well trained new members It's like baseball with no minor league supply of trained talent.

Right!! But for as many corps in Queens, there were probably twice as many in Brooklyn. But I think the most were in New Jersey which was home to 87 drum corps in the '60's. What a time!

Another fantasy from the uninformed.

And just what, in your definition of the word, is the irony? I think you've vaguely said something else but haven't expressed it clearly.

This came close to actually happening. In the late '50's/early '60's, the Skyliners used rehearsal space above the Palace Theater. They would open the windows and the Broadway crowds were mystified to find the source of those great NY repertoires. The sight of some of Sky's more colorful characters roaming Broadway with their suspicious horn cases and ducking into hidden doorways was a rare pleasure for the corps. But that was a time when drum corps was a contact sport and anything could be seen on Times Square. Also known by some as "The Good Old Days". There's probably a decent book about these and other notorious events of many of those senior corps.

Could very well be the same guy. He who would never become bishop or saint. Imagine the level of mistrust on all sides! The security and selection of trusted stakeholders took as much debate as judging panel selection. This was something that could have been in "Guys & Dolls". It reveals an insight into the biggest corps and atmosphere of the time. It also continued in its own way in later years and across the activity..

Betting? You bet your sweet ###!! There were direct bets between Hawthorne & Sky on several other contests. Most times, the bet was much more than what was listed here. Also, the '63 Scranton show was not the final meeting of these 2 corps. That Scranton contest formed the basis for long-standing animosity against Pennsylvania judging games. More than one corps decided to stay out of PA for years. The outrageous judging here particularly led quickly to a meeting led by Sky, Archie & Hurricanes to force reform. The idea was overdue but it came under manipulation by the wrong people and quickly became a civil war. Judging overall came under much criticism and heated judges meetings, sometimes with violence. The Scranton contest continued to be the center of the same problems for years and was not a welcome place to compete for some corps. The very next day was the Dream, won by Hawthorne. Then, the Legion Nationals in Miami saw another hefty bet which Sky tried to back out of. It was declared a true bet after a serious study of the events and ethics by a priest from one of the Jersey Jr corps. On that occasion, the bet was on who would beat the other. Hawthorne won that also.

Going back to the creation of the DCA, a major reason was because of horrible and unqualified judging which mostly happened to everyone who competed in Pennsylvania, even in-state corps. This became intolerable in Scranton '63 when a major corps was so upset with the judging that they surrounded the judges and were ready to tear them apart following a very long and threatening judges meeting that normally would have only lasted about 30 minutes. The judges were rescued by Hawthorne and escorted to their cars after this ferocious meeting that went on until 2AM. Hawthorne was purposely kept out of the DCA based on uninformed sources with partial information. The situation festered because the business managers of Hawthorne & the Skyliners had a deep personal hatred for each other. Corps were kept out for 2 years until DCA leadership realized that sponsors of the biggest contests - biggest prize money, largest crowds - rejected being a DCA show. The independent corps enjoyed the benefits and this poor decision by DCA kept the organization in financial hardship that lasted beyond '66 and prevented opening up to other corps. Having smaller DCA shows also hurt member corps because of much smaller prize money. In those days, big shows could have first prize money as high as $7,500. The typical show often maxed at $2,000. Member corps were not happy. The opening of DCA to Hawthorne, Sunrisers, Syracuse, Interstatesmen & Marksmen, etc. brought with them the big sponsors/crowds. DCA did not share in contest receipts but only continued to get their judging fees regardless. The financial structure was deeply flawed. DCA's creation kept the best corps from competing together. In its intention to harm Hawthorne, the DCA did the most harm to the organization and especially the member corps. Show creativity suffered, fans got less than they could get pre-DCA and the independent corps made some very good money and strengthened their treasuries. From the beginning, the founding corps focused on getting away from unqualified and/or biased judging. They naturally took a direct hand in judge approval or protests. This soon emerged as DCA becoming a judging association. DCA's problem with NE Circuit centered on not supplying judges (read control). They made their money from judging fees. Those fees went mostly to the judges and left little to form or grow a treasury. It was very short-sighted. As for judging make-up, it was not true that 60% were ex-Cabs. None of the Pennsylvania or New York State judges were ex-Cabs. There was a good representation of ex-Skyliners in those panels, especially in NY State. In actual practice, both Hawthorne & Sky dreaded having ex members judge them. Those judges felt that they had to prove their fairness.They actually went overboard and were overly harsh and subjective on their former corps. Some of these judges were actually protested and removed from rosters.

Mr Windish - Your assumptions about me and corps affiliation are totally wrong. I am aware of you, though. You allege that DCA did marketing for member corps. Then please give us 3 relevant, major examples spanning its existence. You wrongly try to infer that my corps experience was poor under DCA. Very wrong - no names please. And no again, you have failed to paint me as an ingrate or unhappy or worse. As for being 'championship-centric', well, wrong again. Each week, at each contest, DCA provided judges only but still insisted on calling them sanctioned DCA shows. No participation in advertising. No investment in the cost of any contest. No reduction of judging fees to help a struggling sponsor. No contribution to the host/sponsors' operating costs for the contest. No assistance to corps with unexpected financial distress. DCA always took its cut first, no matter what. The major part of DCA's history was only for NE corps. It's an important reason why nobody outside NE cared about them. DCA after many years only paid lip service to attracting corps from elsewhere than NE. Labor Day weekend was not their original championship date but taken from the old Northeast Circuit. It was intended to weaken (kill) Northeast Circuit. But in doing this, DCA corps had to pay elevated room/food prices on a premier holiday when they could have chosen any other date just as well. Keep in mind that DCA did not pay for those items for themselves but assessed the members for them. Again, DCA took judging fees. Also, the DCA leadership paid each officer and some had generous expense accounts; they were not volunteers. This was not a charity run by unpaid volunteers. "Revenue sharing" was more an exercise in political power than something equitable. Have you been part of the allocations? Have you seen the formulas? It doesn't sound like it. You did not comment on the many years of terrible video products or why DCA could never figure out how to give people a decent product but still took their money. Why did DCA allow its corps membership make-up of adults taken from them without a whimper? Now, college age people are in DCI and the great DCA is left with 14 year-olds trying to make music. The young, physically immature don't have the resonance of mature players, the sound is inferior and it's obvious. The young teen players don't have the physical/athletic skills for demanding maneuvers. By any measure, DCA is an inferior product and has been for a long time. The DCA has been in decline for a long time and the challenges affect every corps and association. DCA has failed to understand the changes, or to anticipate them and has not met them with any real success. That's because from its inception, it was designed and operated only as a judging association seeing to its own wants first.

The real question should be 'Is the DCA around & alive now"? DCA has never been anything but a judging association, from DAY ONE (1). They never acted as a marketing association for their members. They only gave a corps a parade referral if they were judging it. The videos, except for '93, have not even been amateurish. That video was the best but DCA did not invest a nickel in it; it was all the producers' money. Then the DCA would not renew but went to another great mismanagement triumph with a product that had no color or sound. They don't have pride in their image and don't promote the corps members. Ever! In all their undertakings, they were striving to become ept. DCA was begun in true reactionary thinking to control judging after a number of truly bad judging jobs of the best senior corps in '63. The chief judges were blatantly unwilling to get things right. They have badly mismanaged their monopoly. Over the years, many competing corps have been treated badly to the point where the corps realized they were not going to get a fair shake and decided to do something else with their time and money. In the '90's, there was a widespread quote about them: This DCA is for when you don't have enough frustration in your life.

In 1964, Al Mura was not part of Garfield's program but Costello & Parks were.

It seems like Frank has forgotten about Al Mura, Jim Costello & Les Parks having done just that long before and more than once.

It is also necessary to specify what you mean. Did the corps members reside in that town? How many? What percentage? In the DCI era, members in most corps have no relationship to the name/address of the corps. They are visitors at best. However, prior to the DCI, it was almost a certainty that most corps' members lived in or very near the corps address. Visit a rehearsal of the current corps and you will see car license plates from all over the country. After finals, bus lineups are placed by what part of the country they will make drop-offs , such as California - North or South, etc, regardless of the corps name labeled on the bus.

We also need to point out that St. Ignatius was started and instructed for many years by the legendary Tom Costa who did the same for Mt. Carmel, Loretto and St. Rita. He and graduates became the backbone of Long Island corps.

I don't think Carman Cluna was the director of any corps, especially not Tom Costa's St. Ignatius.