Audiophile

Bravo!!

Thanks. Just being Sisyphus and pushing that boulder up again...I know the inevitable result, but am doomed to repeat my actions. At least it has inspired some discussion. Thanks everyone for all the comments, I appreciate even the harshest words sent my way. At least it shows we still have a hugely passionate community out there. More so than any other arts activity I'd say. My parting words on this topic would be please support the activity and the members who work so hard for you and for themselves. Even if you don't like what's happening right now, at the end of the day those kids lives are being changed for the better. THEY are the stars of the show and possibly the future teachers/designers of drum corps. I think this activity is more about them than us. Give 'em some love, they deserve it. Sermon over, peace!

People in the direct line of fire of the speakers on the lower level, as well as anyone sitting in an area where the bass frequencies build up would probably not be getting an ideal listening experience. That said, an earlier poster said a lot of people don't know the difference...true statement. The people on this board have refined ears and know what they want to hear. However, a lot of folks in the audience don't. To say 90% are getting the shaft is a gross exaggeration to be sure. I have found that the balance in the upper levels has been pretty good with a lot of groups over the season minus the obvious "whoa, what the heck was that sound".

In a word, no. The pit setups of today are far too complicated with way too many variables from group to group. Not to mention the corporate implications of creating a sound system monopoly with no other choices. Mandating how to setup your PA or what kind to use is a complete violation of the pit arrangers creative freedom. However this year they are trying something different at finals to get rid of the uber-pit mix on the finals DVD's. So while I understand the intent behind your idea, it's just far too impractical.

For obvious reasons I can't get exactly specific, but actual judges tapes from this year have comments on them like... "mallets sound a bit strident right now, may want to check the miking technique" This is actually a very insightful comment and is a common issue with amplification "synth support is making it difficult to read the brass book in this passage" Another good comment on the judge being aware and evaluating a balance issue with the synth Groups that use electronics more overtly are probably more likely to get those elements adjudicated. Granted there are judges out there who do not have a tech knowledge about the terminology but they are all musicians who can hear an imbalance. It may be that the points deducted for said A&E balance issues are not weighted as say, a brass error. But that will be fixed soon as A&E becomes an integral part of shows, hence an integral part of the adjudication process.

Again I apologized for the title and admitted I failed on that...not sure what else to do with that. This is an expensive activity. Sound equipment and electronics is an added expense, agreed. However you don't buy brand new equipment every year. It's a one-time bulk purchase and then occsaional maintenance and repair/replace with normal wear and tear. The rising cost of gas prices is contributing more to increased fees than the initial purchase of sound equipment for a corps. Plus corporate sponsorship helps offset the cost of the equipment...no one gets free gas. Let's not turn electronics into the black sheep to blame for everything. On that note. A&E on it's own isn't evil. It doesn't want to kill drum corps. The way in which people utilize those tools does occasionally maim drum corps. But even if people do not want to see it, corps ARE getting better and more savvy at the integration of the electronics in their show designs. It's still in it's infancy and I would hope that we can see continued develop to making this something that both spectator and judge can appreciate simultaneously. I've talked to several huge DCI brass arrangers, and all of them were unanimously excited about all of the possibilities. These are people that have provided all of us with incredible shows for decades. If THEY are in support of electronics and their continued use, wouldn't you trust them enough to at least give them some slack for a few years and figure it out. Maybe the next great thing in drum corps is on it's way, instead of living perpetually looking backwards into the great shows of the past. Do any of the anti-A&E folks find anything this year acceptable? Or is the whole year a bag of $%&? To me, I think this is one of the strongest years creatively in a long time. Lots of variety from show to show. I want electronics to stay and be developed, a lot of you want them to go away so to each his own. However they aren't going away, and I do feel like some people may be missing out on some incredible drum corps by boycotting the activity on this issue. And for the record judges CAN and DO make electronics balance comments on the tapes. Most judges are not sitting up their ignoring an obtrusive synth sound. Both GE Music and Ensemble Music captions are currently punishing/rewarding the electronics element.

Actually you would not get an absurd amount of EVERY sound because most of the acoustic instruments are constantly traveling so the sound source, angle of projection, etc is constantly changing. Where as a speaker is set at one angle the whole show and is always shooting the sound from the same place in the same direction. If you're in the path destruction it's a pretty miserable experience depending on the corps performing. The frequency range for most of the Goo is between 60hz-90hz-ish maybe? There is something about Lucas Oil, that vaporizes those frequencies depending on where you're at, especially in the judges area. Maybe it's not a textbook bass trap, but the bass isn't making it upstairs and it builds up like crazy in certain parts of the lower level. In response, sound guys boost the overall level of the subs, and the brown note wipes out the audience and causes wide spread diaper changes.

Ok let me go at this another way so it doesn't become a wave of isolated quotes responding to every knife wound I received...I'm bleeding out over here anyway. Personal fail admitted. Recover, regroup... I'll try and grab a few quick ones though here since you all did me the favor of reading my drivel, I don't want to disrespect that effort by ignoring the comments.... Front ensemble technique with particular groups has changed dramatically with the use of amplification as has the mallet selection. BD's pit has the most beautiful touch on the instrument. This sound amplified is a very unique and fantastic sound that is only possible through amplification. As far as new members...Piano playing members now get an opportunity to experience the activity which may have been previously impossible if they did not play another instrument. The youth of today is more engaged with the electronics because that is a very natural sound to their ears as they have grown up with synths in all of their music. I am not saying there's swarms of new fans because of it, but to say that it has created NO new fans is negating an entire generation of future marching members that may be more excited about corps because of the advances in technology. In particular, this is an extremely exciting time for front ensembles across the country. No. Corps are compensating for the low end loss in their finals venue by pushing the subs. Is that the right answer? Apparently not. But if properly balanced (which agreed is a rarity), the low sub frequency should compliment the whole sound of the corps. In huge impacts, I enjoy hearing a strong root note at the bottom of the chord. The current overuse is an issue for sure. BUT there is potential for a fantastic semblance of acoustic and electronic elements...we just aren't there in that stage of evolution yet. Everyone's free to their opinion on whether not they want to see this progress...I for one would love the activity as a whole to continue getting better at making the electro-acoustic link more seamless. I am 100% with you on this one actually. Miking the soloists during massively loud ensemble playing is a design choice we have all seen now...and no one cares for. But the concept of miking a soloist as a tool is still very valuable as Bluecoats proved last year. It'll just take time for everyone to figure out the best way to use the technology at hand. Here's some things to consider that will hopefully blanket the rest of the thread... The staff at every corps is not balancing to the crowd, they are balancing to the pressbox. Can we take this as a relatively true statement? I am not saying that it's the right thing to do, I am just trying to find some common ground we can agree on. When those groups are making those big picture "this is how we want to sound at finals" type of decisions throughout the year, they are not taking the ticket buyer's listening experience into account. They want the judges up stairs to clearly hear every element of their show, both acoustic and electronic. The clarity of intent of the score is always the end goal from a blend/balance standpoint and it takes all season to get that razor sharp. This is obviously and unfortunately causing gross imbalances throughout various seats in the venue. When you go to a concert and the sound sucks, the concert sucks. I get it. You pay money to be entertained, not molested in the ears. However I will say that where the activity is at RIGHT NOW...there seems to be no halfway point and the corps will choose to balance to the Judges, not the fans. That's just how it is...for now. Perhaps if enough hooplah is made of this, DCI will address all the corps and say "Yo guys, turn it DOWN". Much like the push for more entertainment, I believe the corps will follow suit to some degree if it comes down from above. I would highly suggest if any of you know some folks that will be at the DCI meetings, that you urge them to bring this topic up. There are already some new ideas for getting better DVD finals recordings. Progress is being made in that department, it will just take time for that concern over the recorded audio to transfer over to the live audio. Seeing this many people upset about the live mix, seems like DCI should get on that PRONTO! My only caveat with this...mandating this sort of "turn it down" approach is going to step on a lot of designers/arrangers toes. I'm sure no staff want someone giving them a decibel limit for a particular sound. It's the designers' choice how they want to present their material. So that's a tricky line to tread...not sure what the answer is. How would this be policed? How do we determine the "offensive sounds" versus "non-offensive sounds"? Who's the last word on that? Who do both the fans and the corps staff feel comfortable with in that position? An audience/corps audio liason...It's a pandora's box for sure.

Oh my oh my, my DCP cherry is quite throttled now isn't it? Sorry guys that I don't have the time right now to properly respond to everyone's commentary. I will respond as soon as I can...but seems as if I have left myself wide open for a plethora of virtual crotch-kicking. So quickly...sorry I put haters in the title...agreed twas a poor topic title. And also sorry I put out the tone that it was a jab at the audience. Moreover I meant it to be an explanation as to the current circumstances, not necessarily a justification. Things are the way they are right now for a reason across the board with most of the corps and I did not get the sense that a lot of people understood why corps are making the choices they are. This assupmtion was based on reading multiple threads where I thought people were missing the point. It is very apparent this community has a much stronger grasp on the issues than I previously thought. However, I only realize that in the heated responses to my post. I will do my best to thouroughly respond to all those who wanted clarification as soon as I have the time. Love everyone's enthusiasm on here, even when you're raining Hell on me :) Good to know people are still this passionate about every aspect of the activity.

****ALREADY APOLOGIZED FOR USING "HATERS" IN THE TOPIC....my bad, let's move along***** Hello DCP, I love all the heated debates on here. It is so nice to see discusssions going on here rather than facebook or some other social networking outlet. However, I felt the need to at least take a few moments to address some consistent concerns amongst the DCP community at large. I have some experience in the area of electronics/sound reinforcement as well as brass arranging and sound design. I would hope you would all at least take this into consideration before flaming me into the pits of hell :) I'll try to touch on a few key points here, sorry if the thought process is a bit disjunct 1. "Thunderous Goo" A. If you are not right behind the judges at every venue in their exact spot, please don't complain about the mix. EVERY corps is mixing for the judges and if you are in the lower level just know that you will be getting an absurd amount of speaker sound. This is even more true in venues where the lower level creates a BASS TRAP that does not allow the desired electronic low frequencies to cut to the box. This is an acoustic phenomenon that is unique to each venue. Any corps at any time may be required to boost their subs to kick some more juice up to the top if the venue's lower level creates a BASS TRAP that cuts the amount of low frequencies traveling to the judge's box. Google BASS TRAP 2. Thunderous Goo versus sounding Tuba pitch In most cases, the offending goo is actually producing a tone that is an octave below the sounding pitch of the tubas. Even the greatest tuba sections can't project certain frequencies to the box at Lucas Oil. The synth allows the ensemble to project a discernable pitch and fundamental tone that would be otherwise impossible to create by acoustic means. At this point, a lot people would say that we don't need that sound if we can't produce it acoustically. My answer to that would be that I believe certain frequencies DO NOT project and CARRY to the box at Lucas Oil despite the best efforts of staff and members. At that point, one can use synths to ENHANCE(not replace) said frequencies to help them project to the box. Most notable of these are the low frequencies of the tubas. Not to mention that the regular audience member when they go to the movies are used to hearign those low sub frequencies. For all those that would argue that Drum Corps is what it is and shoudl be appreciated for it's raw sound as God intended...didn't Cesario make a mass decree to entertain the audience?? We are also obliged to entertain them sonically, and everyone and their Grandmas these days have surround sound and subwoofers when they listen to music or watch movies. This is now DCI's way of keepin up with the Jones's (more on that idea later) 3. Balance and blend Regardless of vantage point, there are times when a group's sound system is way too loud. Subs, Mains, Sampler, Synth...it is a delicate web of technology to be balanced with the acoustic corps. BUUUTTTT just because groups have issues with balance from YOUR specific listening point doesn't mean we need to burn the electronics at the stake. And even if that groups sound system is too loud that doesn't mean you can slam the entire concept of amplification. Obviously you need to learn how to use your sound system like an instrument. How about this example..."Man, the new bells on the Mellophones really project their sound to the box more than normal. Too bad they always overbalance the ensemble" ..."Let's burn them alive and get rid of Mellophones all together instead of teaching them how to control their sound"...seems logical??? Then let's not burn the evil electronics just yet, yes? But again, balance MUST be assessed from the proper point with an extremely trained ear. If you are a brass player you have a penchant for the brass balance, if you are a percussionist you lean that way....you have to have a true macro ear for everything. The top groups in the country are listening to every tape and balancing the sound system live via remote mixing with a listening vantage point as close as humanly possible to the judges for that venue. For those of you that complain and/or are concerned with a particular groups balance...TRUST ME they are WAYYY more worried (and knowledgeable) about their balance, and the judge's assessment of their balance than you could possibly imagine. Infinite tweaks and adjustments are made on a daily basis and if you continue to think said group who is in the top has a bad balance...stand right behind the music judges and take a listen....chances are it's pretty dang balanced this time of the season. 4. Ridculous statements All the horns mic'd through the PA...are you serious!?!? First of all, understand that there is a whole front ensemble that takes the majority of the highs and mid-high frequencies available from trhe speakers. Speakers aren't magical devices where you can keep pouring sounds into them and they just immediately respond by becoming infinitely louder. Only so much can pass through those speakers. And most of the time, the mallets and synths are at the end of the line, with very little room for anything else. People talk about sampling brass, and all sorts of ridiculous stuff...look, electronics are there to provide a sonic spectrum that the existing instruments cannot create. Vocals/Singing, sound designed effects, extremely low.high pitches are just a small example of these effects. FOr those that think brass will be sampled...Any uses of replicating/sampling brass will either be done A) so poorly everyone will learn from that groups mistake or B) be done so well it won't actually sound like the real thing and will become an entirely new effect. Micing solists with effects or not....Corps create MORE SOUND NOW. Speakers and MUCH louder battery instruments contribute to a much louder corps ensemble sound. I for one would like to hear a soloisy play with at least a semblance of technique and sound quality versus laser beaming a high note to the press box and hanging over the release just to probe how high he was actually playing. The actvity is evolving...to a STRONGER beast. Please help the progress, don't slam it. 5. Keeping up with the Jones's...if the top 6-8 groups are bumping their sound system at a given show and are integrating electronics into everything...ya gotta keep up.