dbc03

I don't know, but we better have 5 pages assuming they aren't so that people have their chance to ##### about something they don't know about

His "new" page is the old "The Cadets" page that he was the admin of and refused to give up. He just changed the name, I imagine a good chunk of those people have no idea that he is running the group or that they are following it To put it bluntly, why would anyone care about his opinion on the matter? He hasn't been involved in the corps in two years and never will be again.

Not sure how you arrive at any other conclusion

The inverse seems more likely to me. YEA first and foremost was The Cadets, this move is almost certainly being made to keep the rest of YEA from dragging down The Cadets rather than vice versa.

If that's what you took from my message then you are just looking to fight, and I'm not going to give it to you anymore.

You and others are ascribing a lot of beliefs to me that don't exist. I agree that drum corps is overall pretty inclusive, although I think there is room for improvement, diversity is difficult when the cost of entry is approaching $5000. As I said before, it is becoming a rich kid's game. In terms of gender and LGBTQ inclusion in corps membership it is easily the most inclusive activity that I've been involved with (It would be nice to see a better balance in corps leadership, but that's an argument for another day). I still like and support drum corps. I go to shows, I financially support a corps, I spend free time debating how to make things better on an internet forum. Drum corps made me who I am today, and I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful to the men and women of all colors who have contributed to the activity, yes even including the white men. I even like The Cavaliers. I imagine that like most corps they do a lot of good for their members. I typically enjoy their shows, and hope that eventually they get back to mid-2000s form (maybe expanding the talent pool would help 😝). I don't think they should exclude women though. I don't think they are bad people, I don't think they are all being intentionally sexist, I just think that in this case they are wrong and I wish they would change. It's fine that people don't agree, obviously we all think we are right, but I've given a lot of thought to my reasons for feeling this way and I've explained them the best I can. Don't confuse the passion with which I explain my convictions with the amount I care about the specific situation. I think The Cavaliers should allow women. I'm not protesting The Cavaliers, I'm not boycotting The Cavaliers, I don't hate The Cavaliers, I'm not even telling the people with the power to fix it that they should fix it. It's a drop in the bucket of what I believe are larger societal issues. I've tried to be respectful and not attack anyone here (with the exception of Hooters patrons, but to be fair I feel more strongly about that than Cavies), but people obviously take it very personally. If anyone felt I was attacking them personally I apologize, but I do not apologize for my opinions. If stating and defending my opinions on the activity is "spewing hate" then maybe I'll change my username to Mt Vesuvius cause DCP is gonna be Pompeii 😁

It's almost like ya'll are responding to only the first part of my post and ignoring the rest of my post because it is inconvenient to your argument. Shocking. I don't believe I ever brought up or used the word equality, I just said I don't think that drum corps shouldn't have membership policies that discriminate against women. You are right that allowing women only organizations but not allowing men only organizations isn't equal, but depending on the circumstances it can be equitable. Anyway, this has been fun, but I think the conversation has gone as far as it can and I'm not going to keep responding to bad faith arguments. I realize that I'm not going to change the opinion of anyone I'm interacting with, but my hope is that maybe someone reading along will at least give their position on the matter a second thought.

Hooters is for gross old men and teenagers who want to sexualize and objectify young women and eat food that tastes like garbage. Miss America isn't as bad as that, but is still objectifying women, I admit that I'm not all that familiar with the details of the Miss America pageant, I've never watched it but maybe it has some value that I'm not aware of, but you asked my opinion. I have no problem with women wearing bathing suits, I have problems with the gross men getting their jollies by ogling them

Fine, gross, unfamiliar, gross, I consider all MLMs to be a scam. Your real question is do I have a problem with groups that discriminate against men by membership to only women. The answer is it depends. Sometimes the benefits to women can outweigh the cons to men. I don't even have a firm categorical disapproval of men's only groups. I can't think of any specific ones of the top of my head that I think are good, but I'm open to the idea. Maybe a support group for men who have been abused by a spouse? I just don't put drum corps in that bucket. It's not a black and white thing, the world is complicated.

It is, by definition, discrimination. They are excluding people based only on their gender. You can argue that the benefits of having an all male corps outweigh the cons of discriminating against women, I understand the arguments for doing so, I just don't agree with them. But instead you'd rather focus in on intentionally misinterpreting my other post instead of the actual matter at hand. Since you've brought up legality a couple times now, I haven't claimed that an all male drum corps is against the law. Not all discrimination is illegal. They can legally exclude anyone they want. However, I personally disagree with their choice to exclude people based on gender. The courts aren't the final arbiters of morality for me.

The cost of the activity on the participants is a much bigger issue than The Cavaliers not allowing women. The activity is becoming more and more a rich kid's game.

Ahh yes, you got me! Oh wait, no you didn't. First of all, I'll let you read the definition of discriminate: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/discriminate You'll see that differentiating based on merit is not discrimination. Second of all, you are intentionally making a bad faith argument and I will not engage you any further.

I know of at least one

Careful, that's quite a slippery slope you've got there, don't want to fall. "Bad trumpet player" isn't a class of people that has been systematically discriminated against in our society, so I have no problem excluding bad trumpet players from drum corps. This is just not true, people will still care.

For what it is worth I think you should have been allowed to be a rifle too

You know very well that I wasn't equating male only drum corps with white nationalist groups because you read the second part of my post. They were specifically called out as extreme examples because your argument that all male drum corps are fine because people want them is flawed.

Lots of people wanting to do something doesn't make it right. As an extreme example, lots of people join white nationalist groups. Lots of people wanted segregated schools. Lots of people want laws against homosexuality. I don't put all male drum corps on the same level as those things, but it is still discriminatory and wrong in my opinion. I realize that here of all places my opinion is not a popular one, but I think history will ultimately side with me.

I didn't miss anything. I am aware that the Cavaliers are an all-male corps, it isn't a very good "gotcha" to point that out. I don't think they should exclude women, but I acknowledge that they do.

If a corps explicitly excluded LGBTQ people would you support that? Why or why not?

"Our mission is to provide members with life-changing experiences, educationally and socially, which help each individual member gain real-world life skills, musical training, and performance experience. Through the development of the character traits of dedication, discipline, and teamwork, each member of this close-knit, all-male fraternity learns what is required to be successful on and off the performance field." That sounds like an educational organization to me

I think you are vastly underselling the oppression that women have gone through over the centuries. It doesn't take anything away from the oppression that the LGBTQ community have gone through, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Both groups have had really ###### things happen to them For the record, I was against this as well and have said as much.

Yes, exactly, because there are differences based on historical context. There are both sororities with men and fraternities with women. Since we're all coming from a music background KKY and TBS are examples of both. And I don't believe that any educational organization should exclude women. There is no good reason to do so, and history will look on them in the same way that we now look on "white only" organizations from 50 years ago.

Are you trying to refute or prove my point?

There isn't a long history of systematic oppression of men perpetuated by female-exclusive groups, so the two aren't comparable.

I would