fastbreak

I have really enjoyed the stories being told here about Garfield and the bits about the Crusaders. I am going to add on to the pile with stories involving both corps. In 1977, we the Marquis from Fond du lac, WI, housed in Denver with both Boston and Garfield in dorms at Denver University during DCI and Legion Nationals. It was the best week or so of the year being around two corps that oozed attitude and pride. We shared the practice fields and areas for practice. When we had the chance we listened to their rehearsals and the way they practiced. I remember the full ensemble by Boston in the courtyard one evening. “Celebration Suite” played quickly was the best. We had local visitors one night that came into the dorm and was going floor to floor doing who knows what, but the word spread quickly with the locals being confronted by 40 or so guys from all 3 corps. The locals made a good decision and left quietly. I can’t leave until I mention American Legion Prelims in Denver. They were held in Golden, right down the river from the Coors Brewery at the Colorado School of Mines. You would think that engineers would build a soccer/football field that actually drained after it rained. Mud about around the ankles if not higher. One member lost a shoe in the mud during that prelim show. Going back to the parking lot there was a corps, can’t remember who, going the opposite direction to march their show with white or cream wool pants. The look on some of their faces when the saw the mud on us was unforgettable. We just smiled and said good luck. 37-year-old memories, but still fun to think about.

A further explanation of the high school age participants BITD is probably needed. We could argue about the number of band kids in corps BITD because that number per corps were different from corps to corps for various reasons. The number of high school age participants not in a band program BITD was much higher. My own experience was pretty much coming off the street and the corps teaching me the skills to play and march. That would go for many kids then. You do not see many if at all the situation where kids are coming off the streets to belong to a corps. More HS band students involved today? Possibly, but according to the numbers and percentages given, there is very little to brag about.

I hope this put some common sense to the numbers thrown around. Stated was the fact that there were 41 corps participating in 2013. Let's use a rough easy number to do the math. How about an average of 100 members per corps. 2013 The total would be 4100 participants. 2952 would be college age. 1148 would be high school age. 1973 86 corps with an average of 100 members. For argument sake let's spin the percentages in 1973 to 72% high school and 18% college age. Let's agree that there more high school and younger participants back in 1973. We can argue the percentages, but let's look at the numbers. 8600 participants of which 1548 would be college age. 7052 would be high school age. Draw your conclusions. In my opinion, I believe there are less high school kids involved because it is tougher to make the cuts at tryouts. Generally talent level is higher with college age kids. My 2nd reason is when they don't make the cut, they have no interest in marching with another corps. The old,"my dream is to march with ________". I make no other conclusions dealing with this. The activity has changed and it is really no longer an youth activity. Bands have taken that spot and there are many excellent ones out there.

On the post earlier about the Rebels, Windjammers and Marquis, I'll try to lend some light , but there is still a few pieces missing on the puzzle. The Rebels were a small corps from Fox Point, northern suburb of Milwaukee. The did have an excellent guard in the early 70's and finished high in that area for several years. The last I saw them on the field was in 1973, but they could have competed later. The next I heard or saw of the Rebels was in 1975 as a merger between ??????? from Milwaukee and the Rebels calling themselves the Princemen. I want to say the other corps involved was the Chordaliers form Milwaukee, but I could be wrong. The Princemen only competed in 1975. I saw them at State Legion that year as a Class A corps(small corps). The Windjammers last year was in 1974 or 75. I do not have any knowledge of them merging with anybody. The Marquis angle into all this is that the Marquis were around since 1968 or so. When the fall of 1975 and 76 rolled along, there were roughly 15 to 20 people that came from the Milwaukee area, some who marched in the Rebels/Princemen. There were also people who came from the Windjammers, Royal Knights(uncle z and a few others), Americanos in 1977 along with the Princemen people. The Marquis glory years were from 74 to 77, with 77 being questionable because of terrible programming. Going from Light classical and jazz to Rock, terrible. Before giving up in the Spring of 78, the Marquis were going back to the classical and jazz book.

That 74 Blue Star show was rough around every edge. I remember seeing them in the middle of June and their score dropped in every show in a weekend from Friday to Sunday evening. They went back and cleaned the show, but still a rough show. Interesting to read what Dan had to say about out of staters of over 50% by that time in Madison by 1977. The corps I marched in (Marquis) during the 70's went from practically total local in 1973-74 to well over 75% from out of town (Milwaukee to Manitowoc to Appleton and every point in between) by the time the corps called it quits in early 78. It was probably one of the major reasons for disbanding due to lack of local support. At the time of disbanding, a good 20 to 25 members went on to march that season with Blue Stars, Madison, Wausau Story. Several were still marching as late as 1984.

Thanks Dan, The difference from the early season to the end was beyond belief. Getting rid of the little scout hats to the aussies and if my memory doesn't fail me, you guys went to the red sash also in 73 was definitely a different look. The horn line I believe was in the mid 40's for size in 73, but the size jump to 54 to 58 in 1974 and the drum section growing up in 1974. WOW!! The reason for the "would they be around" question was, at least to me and several others, was that Madison was treading water. The Blue Stars definitely were growing stronger by the moment and the Kilts were the Kilts, always there in the hunt for titles". When you look at the fortunes of the Blue Stars from 73 to 81 and Madison in the same years.... hmmm. No conspriacy theories, but the way potential members looked at those two corps?

I was listening to early 70's shows and the thought popped in my head. The drastic change in programming style, etc. of the 70 to 72 Madison to the very popular and the rise to fame starting with 73 Madison. Was there a major reason from going to the varied music show from the total show package? Remember the "Alice" show and the 72 Patriotic show? A second question pops up. If Madison would have stayed with the total show concept of the early 70's, would there be a Madison today? This topic may have been discussed to death, but I haven't run across it from looking at other topics. Just thinking and wondering. Thoughts, comments...

MikeN Thank you for your analysis presented. Being a coach in several high school sports, you can toss out the old saying,"That's why the game is played" in some cases. I will always take those odds in knowing that a team lower than me in the standings has very little chance of beating me on any given day. In the top 4-5 corps, there is some movement between one another, but WOW when you look at Boston, Vanguard, Cadets, Bluecoats. Only 4 losses between them to a corps that finished lower than them. What does this prove? It's in the eye of the beholder, but I love the odds!

I'm looking at last years Semis's results and in GE Visual I am getting a lesson on how to count from 1 to 11 in order from top to 11th. The only hiccup was Madison taking 14th in GE Vis., while the Crossmen took 12th in GE Vis.. The best the Crossmen could do in any area was 12th in GE Visual and Visual Performance. Every other caption was 13th. Finish for the Crossmen was 13th??????? Crown on the same day finished 4th in Semi's. All captions were 4th with the exception of Total GE where they came in 3rd. No surprise, they came in 4th overall. It is difficult to believe that a 13th place corps can do no better than 12th in any caption and no worse than 13th in any caption. The results are so uniform across the board. BITD we had the DCI Effect. We would have a local show and we would score above a few DCI corps drum lines. The next evening, with the same judges and a few other corps at a DCI event, we would score below those same DCI corps. Were we upset? At first we were, but then realization drops in and you start accepting the results because you just know the reason. But that's a topic dragged to death here.

I'm not going to disagree with many of the posters about several corps having excellent programs and the cream rising to the top but; I have this corps buddy, who on a bet over several beers, examined all the recaps from 1972 to present from DCI Championships on the premise that the top 12 corps score in the top 12 in all captions. I felt that there was still a bit of fluctuating going on. An example would be a 15th place corps scoring in the top 12 in brass, a drum line scoring in the top 12 from a 16th place place corps. The friend came back with enough info to make a case for a second gunman on the knoll in the Kennedy killing. Over the years, the variance of placement in captions has become to this point in time practically nonexistent. A 14th place corps has every caption in the 13th to 16th place. An 8th place corps has their placements in the 7th to 10th placements. We will never again see an Oakland Crusader's drums finish in 1st after prelims. An Argonne Rebels hornline finish in 2nd place at prelims. Yea, I know I'm aging myself, but this slotting is taking the mystery out of the competition. You look at the number of corps that have gone through quarters and semis 3 to 4 tenths out of 12th on different days. I realize there are exceptions to this premise, but you can bet the bank that the top 12 are definitely decided by the time quarters are finished and you can find your section placement the same way. Just an old drum corps phart that would like to believe that a great performance still means something.

18 now would probably be SCV. 18 back in 1974 would have been Anaheim Kingsmen.

"Right, and now those shows are the many-more band shows, plus the few corps shows. Kids are still marching and competing, which IMO is what counts." I'm not sure if even a few people are aware of the marching band world in Wisconsin. There are maybe 20 to 30 high schools out of 450 in the state that actively march in the fall every year. There are possibly 5-7 shows with a championship held at UW-Whitewater. This is all held in a little over a month. When you consider what was happening in Wisconsin with the number of corps and the number of shows in the 70's to what is happening now, this wouldn't even hold the candle. Now when you consider the 4 junior corps left in Wisconsin, even counting the Blue Stars, and how few members actually are from Wisconsin in those corps, marching has died in Wisconsin.

St. Joe's of Batavia Geneva Appleknockers Two more that hit the dust awhile back!

Count me in. I enjoy corps from today, but I don't see the distinct personalities that corps presented in the 60's,70's and early 80's. I know that we get flak for these views, but throw in 2002 Santa Clara and tell me exactly that that show is any different in listening to 10 other corps from 2002. Take it a step further, what personality do the other 10 have? Only a viewpoint, not the gospel truth. Heaven forbid!!

Here we go for a Good Old Wisconsin Boy!! 3) Preston Scout house 4) Toronto Optimists 7) Ottawa 8) Shriner's 9) Oakland Crusaders 10) Etiobokoke Crusaders & De la Salle Oaklands Sorry for the Spelling 11) Seneca Princemen & Toronto Optimists 13) De la Salle Oaklands 14) Tom Float 17) Les Chatelaines 20) Ventures 22) Peterbourough Canadian Knights 25) Connexion Quebec Uncle Z -- You need a life with some of those questions!!! Keep those BD pictures of us off the net. PLEASE!!