One n Done
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Posts posted by One n Done
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3 hours ago, George Dixon said:
It's no worry. I was always trying to be positive - but I do have my concerns about the recent decision making by the team (not the BOD) and I hope there is an appropriate response. I'm ready to start donating at a much higher level but not until I believe in the grownups in charge.
YEA appears to be funding Cadets at a totally competitive level - so while they've stated they have tried to cut costs while improving revenue I do NOT believe hiring decisions have been based on purely a financial level. Don't know Darcie - she seems lovely. But clearly this hasn't gone well.
My greater concern is not "mistakes made" but rather the response since mistakes were made. They have really stuck to far too much that hasn't been working. I don't get it. Some easy edits would improve the program. Why hasn't this happened? That is concerning.
There's a number of other things which have occurred along the way - if you want to hear more that would have to be via PM.
George, you seem to fancy yourself as quite the insider at the Cadets. As I’ve never met you, I highly doubt the “insights” you hint at and dangle here.
The group is only funding at a “totally competitive level” if the goal was to simply assure a finals appearance. A comparison of IRS 990’s for the top 6 vs. the Cadets would show, in almost every case, a rather large gap. Money matters. Especially now with the top 12 as proficient and competitive as we’ve seen.
If competitive success is a precursor to supporting the corps, you will likely be found wanting for the very near future. The corps is pulling itself from a hole not of the making of its current employees. This takes time. I will continue to sponsor and donate because it was NEVER about winning. Winning was simply a byproduct of helping produce great people and great Cadets. This, they still do quite well.
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3 hours ago, Algernon said:
not to mention a new corps director
It’s not a monarchy there anymore. Decisions aren’t made by the director alone. Not when it comes to money, staff, designers, etc...In addition, the current director is very hands off about the design process when compared with his predecessor. Something many here had been begging and pleading for the past several years.
It’s been nothing but transition since ‘16, going back to the departure of Gino and Collin. Stability is as much in need right now as are a new drill writer and program coordinator. Despite all the group has been through, they are but 4 placements worse across a span of 4 years. And just 2 placements since the GH scandal and subsequent tenure of the current director. Change in the director position at this time would probably be one of the worst decisions they could make.
Be patient, there will be is no easy button that will land the corps in medal contention next year, or the year after that. The top 6 are sooo good right now. Just cracking that nut will likely take 2-3 years, IF good choices are made and a little good fortune shines on the corps for a change.
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7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
the members have to propose it. despite many rampant conspiracy theories over the yers, directors arent help at gunpoint to vote a certain way
Nor did I say they were.
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44 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:
The twisting and conspiracy theorizing that some people are grasping at here would be hilarious if it wasn't so nutty.
Maybe they just decided that A&E added value to the shows and contribute to a more professional and pleasing production, and they are rewarding the groups that are taking advantage of these new options to create better products? Maybe it's as simple as accepting that the judges and designers believe A&E makes corps sounds better and assists with clarity of intent?
Drum corps is a niche activity. Well, the marching arts as a whole is a niche activity, with drum corps being a small subset of that. To suggest that there is some conspiratorial lobbying going on to change the rules just to sell field systems to 30 or so units, is insane.
There are plenty of adults making money from the activity. Not unlike ultra competitive youth sports. The biggest winners in both are product and equipment manufacturers and retailers.
No conspiracy. But it would be naive to think that money doesn’t play a part in the direction of the activity. I don’t think it’s anywhere near being the prime driver for A&E. I think groups want an edge, want to stay in sight of that edge, and yes....sound better. But, don’t think for a moment that money doesn’t matter. I somehow doubt that our corporate partners are in this solely as a result of their altruistic principles.
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5 hours ago, BigW said:
Also very true. There's been some discussion that the members sign up really not knowing what the program will be and a lot of trust is involved. I think if one goes for a message, that the membership would need to be aware early on so they can decide if they wish to buy in on it or not. 5k is a lot of money.
At the time of the first audition camp there is little that can be shared about a show. The group will definitely have a new drill designer and possibly other new design staff. It may take a little time to hire these people. Even if this weren’t the case, there is very little that can be set in stone by November. A lot of listening and talk of concept has to take place, and then there’s the fun of securing rights to arrange music. February is more realistic for any sort of program “reveal” to potential members. First drafts of a movement or two may be in members hands by December or January.
The best assurance any corps can provide to potential members is the design and instructional staff they secure. For the Cadets, I imagine there will be change here. Hopefully, careful, smart change.
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1 hour ago, jjeffeory said:
I don't do disrespect. I'm respectful to others and I will not tolerate not being treated as a person and with respect. So, that's that over any merit of conversation.
N E. Brigade was right in what I meant.
Yeah, we got a few real “peaches” holding court in here don’t we? ✌️
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1 hour ago, N.E. Brigand said:
What's curious, especially in light of the panel discussion on "Big Loud & Live" tonight, is that, if you are correct that this is happening, the corps in question isn't admitting to it.
I mean, if doing these things is good, why be shy about telling the world you're doing it?
So either no corps is doing what you're saying, or the corps who is doing it is embarrassed to be doing it.
I don't know which is correct.
Not so sure it’s quite as black and white as your questions, Brigand. Certain people on here need things to be THIS or THAT, but life is more often shades of gray. I think teams are taking rules right to the edge with sound reinforcement. In a couple instances, they’ve actually crossed that line. Placements matter. Competitors always seek an edge.
Do I think it’s NECESSARY to mic 30 odd brass players wirelessly? No. Does it violate a rule? No. Do I think it provides an advantage? Yes. Can all in the top 12, let alone the “have nots” well outside the top 12, afford this? No. So, does it seem a bit disingenuous and/or unfair to do what the group in question is doing? I think so.
There have been some well presented cases in this discussion for the pro’s to audio engineering in the activity. Better quality sound, players not having to blow the horn apart, greater freedom in staging, etc... These seem like valid and plausible points to me. The activity left the VFW, tick system, and other things behind (in part) in a quest for greater creative freedom over the years. Reaching for new ways to engage an audience is nothing new.
Again, for me, it’s a question of competition and “fair play”. It is overly simplistic, given the disparity in corps budgets, to say that since a certain group has the means and isn’t breaking a rule that they can mic 30+ brass players individually, and that it’s truly “fair”. Do I begrudge any corps for their financial strength? Absolutely not. It means they can tour, teach, and learn well and hopefully have a great experience. It IS the member corps that ultimately decide their own rules. So, it’s a head scratcher as to why a majority would sign on to something when their 2-3 million dollar operating budget is up against a small minority of groups operating with 3-4 times that funding. I’m not one for putting a leash on art, but I do think sound reinforcement could use more regulation than what has been opted for at this time.
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6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
philosophy has nothing to do wiith money. it's like continuing to run for 11 minutes as opposed to doing a more a modern visual package
Not sure what you’re trying to convey with your response, besides a need to be contrary.
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13 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
ok, so how are amps and props helping say Spirit? Cadets?
You prove my point, somewhat. Ten years ago we began seeing and hearing the obvious amplification of full ensemble brass. We still have groups that consider amplification’s purpose as primarily boosting the front ensemble and generation of sound effects. The best, Bloo, uses amplification to enhance ALL voices in their ensemble as well as create staging possibilities that would be impossible otherwise. I don’t believe that either group you mentioned has the money, audio staff, or philosophy of use that the top 3 have.
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1 minute ago, mrk said:
If this was your intention, why not open the thread with these points and your POV?
I had information that I trusted (and still do). Though I, like others, have had suspicions-I got confirmation from participants whom I do not doubt. It was a little shocking. Especially having recently heard that group. A group without field mics and one that was remarkably louder than it’s close competitors. I shared the information I was comfortable with. Naming such a group is not something I’d do, as there are kids on the field to consider. It’s the actions of the adults that I question and one that I wanted explored in the community. I felt the best way to generate discussion was in the manner I did. I’ve largely stayed out of the back and forth, but appreciate the views shared by all. I’ve no expectations beyond that some of us may be a little more knowledgeable at this point and perhaps a bit more discerning in how we consume the activity.
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2 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:
Which reminds me.... any ideas on how the equipment stands up to the beating of loading/unloading, being in the weather, etc?
rode and did loading duties on the drum truck for 5 years as way to get to practice and know how hard it was on the stuff back then
Groups use tents for electronics in rehearsal and always have tarps at the ready as well for weather. Loading/unloading will beat anything up over time. More costs of playing this game of ours.
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As a refresher, the question of the post wasn’t whether or not amplification was a good or bad thing. I don’t believe anyone is wrong for liking what they like. The intention was more to get folks to consider obvious differences in audio engineering abilities and budget in a competitive setting. At points, I also tried to get people to consider what diverting limited resources might mean for groups and their members.
There are more resources demanded than just that of money. All that sound equipment, on average, is unloaded , assembled, moved, disassembled, and loaded TWICE a day. It’s not roadies that are doing this, it’s members. The same is true of props. They are needed to rehearse and perform. We have kids burning upwards of 3-4 hours each day loading and building props.
It is obtuse to imply that sound and props don’t impact perception and even placement. It is callous to say, “well, go make more money”. Fans are seeing and hearing an unbelievable level of entertainment. But, consider the cost and what it might be taking away from the member experience and strain it places on each organization.
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4 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
bravo.
and for all of the hand wringing....you actually think DCI is going to read DCP and change a rule because of it?
Well.... It’s finals week and in a day this discussion has generated 30 pages. Trust me, those within the activity are aware of what happens on DCP. If nothing else, it definitely provides some “entertainment”.
Change a rule? Yeah, no. If some earnest discussion here helps brings about questions and dialogue within the member corps about audio engineering...probably a good thing. This discussion has had its share of the expected snark and defensiveness one would expect. But, there has also been decent, respectful, well reasoned, and even technical talking points exchanged. Which is great. You are the consumer. They listen, but don’t always respond as quickly or in the manner as some would like.
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1 hour ago, Terri Schehr said:
I love this thread.
Your welcome.
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On 8/4/2019 at 7:17 PM, George Dixon said:
so I took a stop watch to the brass playing - they play exactly 7:43 of the program
Time any 3 of the top 6 groups. You might be surprised with what you find.
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On 8/3/2019 at 9:46 PM, exitmusic said:
It isn't working. It didn't work with us during his first tour of duty in the mid-90s. It's time for an entirely new brass team and an entirely new creative team. He's a lovely person and an excellent arranger, but... it's time.
Ummmm, he was co caption head for one year only. 1995. Brass won the Ott, corps came in 2nd.
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Appreciate the feedback from all. Discussion was the goal here. My own feelings:
1. There are larger differences in sound design than most of us realize.
2. Much of the amplification DOES sound excellent and improve the audience experience.
3. It is very expensive to do sound design competently. Some groups already struggle with travel, nutrition, medical staff, and affording quality instruction. It concerns me that the latter items may suffer to afford the upgrade in electronics.
4. This IS a competition. Yes, the rules are the same for all...but few can fully make use of them. If numbers and rankings played NO part in the activity, I suppose I wouldn’t be concerned. But we do assign numbers, and in an already very subjective system of evaluation, amplification influences listeners more than we may know.
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1 hour ago, FlamMan said:
Bluecoats are obnoxiously over amplified. Cavies would be my next guess. How do we know that corps aren't adding perfectly executed and performed pre-recorded brass to the mix???
That has already happened, and you wouldn’t know it from the stands.
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28 minutes ago, westcoastblue said:
Couldn't care less. More knowledge, more possibilities, etc. I do know that we would not want to mic any 30 of most Dci brass lines say 30 years ago. I think DCI is in it's prime of excellence, creativity, and entertainment.
Thanks for the response.
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42 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:
I’d feel like I was under the impression that it has already been happening for years now.
I don’t think many know how big the sound design discrepancies are just within the top 6.
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33 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:
This is an Electronics arm race people...
It is who can outspend who and who has the best sound guy.
Bluecoats is currently winning this arms race.. But I suspect some serious investment will be made by all finalists corps to make sure that they understand the soundscapes and fine tuning that needs to go into producing a 2020 DCI show on the field..
Having seen a good number of shows live in Buffalo, It is clearly obvious that every one is micing their members and choosing when and were to artificially increase their volumes.... The best are doing it and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Got word that there was even a presentation at one of the recent DCI meetings where a thorough presentation was done by said top corps about how little DCI staff knew about Soundscapes and the equipment required to do a good job at electronics on a football field..
Good stuff.
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17 minutes ago, jjeffeory said:
I mean I just want the original poster to say it because they're trying to stir up all this drama. Yeah it's like a second high school or middle school should I say...
As yet, nobody seems too concerned that an advantage may OR may not be in play. I’m more interested in what fans think vs. who the hypothetical transgressor might be. There’s always been advantages to money. Design, instruction, etc... This may be different. Decibels, tempo, selectively amplifying portions of a group in what are thought to be full ensemble moments. Imagine the impact of having the advantage of projecting tempo to performers that is exactly what the group rehearses at and that accounts for discrepancies in staging/distance. There are maybe 3 groups that can afford the equipment and people to do this. If it WAS happening, how would you FEEL?
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17 minutes ago, Ediker said:
When you go to the trouble to say Top 6, it makes one think you’re talking about Boston or Cavies. I don’t think either of these corps is doing such a thing.
Both amplify the field, but not in the manner or extent “hypothetically” presented.
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If you note the absence of field mics and manner of “conducting” it’s sorta obvious. Hypothetically speaking.
Maybe 3 groups can afford the “hypothetical” scenarios posited. They compete against a majority that cannot. Again, thoughts?
The Cadets 2019
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Apologies for any offense. I get a little displeased at the negative commentary from fellow fans who talk the talk without walking the walk. Especially when placements are down. The only ones truly in the know are those getting a check from YEA or wearing the uniform.
I’m no insider or representative of the drum corps. Just someone with an objective view, despite having a keen interest in the corps. You too seem to be a committed fan. But, your frustrations aired here, in the manner you have, will do little good. In fact, they may do just the opposite. I hope you share your concerns directly with the group’s administration. Might be good for the both of you.