jwillis35

Time for Cadets to tackle some David Holsinger again, only something they have not done yet. On The Grand Prairie Texas would be a good one.

I agree. I watched the multicam view of the encore and was simply blown away. It's just next level stuff. Let's face it, they would have scored a 99+ had their not been two corps with section strength comparable or better. That being Cavaliers percussion and Crown's brass. That held them back a few tics, otherwise that show could have been a 99.15 or so.

Those 1970s Madison Scouts alumni have done a lot of great work in the activity. Both Todd Ryan and Scott Chandler are Madison guys from the 1970s. Even Michael Cesario (who did not march Madison) was I believe born and raised in Wisconsin and was always impressed with Madison guards in those days. He and Scott talk about it in a lengthy video clip from years ago. They met for the first time on Broadway in NYC and began to change the activity. Michael first with Garfield Cadets, and then many others, and Scott with Spirit of Atlanta and then BD. There are many other Madison alumns from that time making a difference in the activity as well.

I don't think Todd Ryan went to BD until 1994. He was working with Star of Indiana in the early 90s I believe. After Star left the activity after the 1993 season is when BD got Todd. But I do think Scott Chandler was on board BD in 1990. ...and speaking of 1990, Blue Devils can bring back Tommy any day as far as I am concerned.

Great post and very true. In the 1970s they were a consistently higher-placing corps. In the 1980s and 90s they had their moments of top 5. I want to say off the top of my head 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 88 are all top 5 shows in the 1980s. In the 1990s I think 92, 95 and 97 are top 5. They had 6 top 5 finishes in the 70s. So that's 15 top 5 finishes from 1972 to 1999. Not bad. But I will echo what @Swmstom1998 stated. Madison was never really in it to win it. Often their staff did not go to critique. What they were was one killer entertaining corps. From the 70s-90s no corps -- and I mean no corps -- could string together entertaining shows and audience response within a show the way the Scouts could. Not Phantom, Cavaliers, Garifled, BD or SCV. Maybe VK for a while? When it comes to looking back at the sheer number of shows they produced in those almost 30 years and the level of audience response and spontaneous standing ovations there was no corps that could light-up the house quite like the Scouts. That swagger, power, showmanship and fantastic music is what people miss. Not the scores. But those kind of shows were more difficult than many might think. In the famous 1988 or 1995 shows Scouts had a brass line that rivaled BD. They actually tied BD and Cadets in 95. It took that kind of talent to pull off that kind of brass book. Wayne Downey of BD discusses this in a video series that BD staff did during the pandemic. He mentions how Madison were the brass kings of the 70s until BD began to challenge them. Those old books required numerous sopranos (now trumpets) that could play in a wide range and with power. Mellos had to have killer chops. Their tubas and baritones were super strong and also had a wide tessatura of range and power. Most players seemed to really understand jazz and swing and latin. They often had soloists that rivaled anyone. This is the part that, until they can really recruit the more experienced players, they will struggle with. So the music book has to be different and playable for now until they begin getting more experience. But you have to start somewhere and I always wish them the best. Do what is right for the members. Program a good, solid show that works. A show that can be cleaned. Then see how far you can take it while maxing out the cleanliness.

Thanks, Chief! Congrats to your son and those Mandarins! What a show. So exciting and so visually and musically captivating.

I do think this is a very good point. I know everyone wants to see old Madison Scouts back in action. But the job of a good design team and teaching staff is not to write that kind of show if the members cannot handle it. You have to write to the talents you have. Madison actually had some good brass and percussion musicians this summer. The visual book was overwritten and did not work that well with the music. The prop did not work. The guard book was too far behind by the time they finished learning the full show. They have to do a better job of getting a show on the field that can be performed at a decent level so they have a chance to clean while also making changes. Age and experience is what it is. They need a show that is well crafted, can be fully taught at camp, and one that meets the talent and experience level of the members. Then they can clean, tweak, and layer from there. The theme or concept of the show needs to be obvious and easy to understand.

I think Blue Devils made a shift in programming after all the criticism they received or viewed when they did shows like 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013. On DCP alone there were many who felt they were not entertaining and just trying to write to the sheets and win. To me this was not true but I remember fans on DCP and elsewhere constantly complaining about their shows not being for the crowd. Now that BD is more fan friendly fans want more innovation. Personally I still find an "air" of freshness to their shows. Their style is still unique in the activity. It may not be new to them but it is unique in the activity. There is no rule stating that if you win and win a lot that you must take the greatest risks and push the activity somewhere new. In the 1980s the Garfield Cadets were often cited for innovations. They certainly were at the cusp of change, but those changes were things like taking asymmetrical drill to new levels, getting rid of the concert number, starting a show with a ballad (1984), some harder drill, flexing intervals, and things of that nature. By the late 80s and through the 90s what did they change? I think the shows just became more fast paced and more demanding but I think their unique style was still in tact. They were not reinventing the wheel every year. This was true in the first decade of the 2000s as well. Did it stagnate at some point? Yes, but not until 2002-2003...and then they tried something a little new in 2004 and again in 2005. But what was different? A baton twirler? A uniform change? A use of a box in the middle of the field? They were still marching high-velocity drill in a style and manner that they employed in the 1980s. The music was still exciting with lots of mellophone runs. You still new it was Cadets. I don't think Blue Devils feel this formula and unique style of theirs has stagnated yet. To me the 2023 show was still pretty fresh and entertaining. The concept was a wonderful idea. When I address their formula I am referring to shows designed from 2014 to now. Their are similarities with 2008-2013, but that minimizes changes they have made. Their 2014 show felt very different to 2013. The 2015 show which was even more theatrical. To compare 2015 to 2017 also shows vast differences. The way they handled old-school vs new-school corps identity in the 2017 show is completely different from anything we'd seen. Their use of props in 2019 was wild and wonderfully creative. People love to say they just Rinse and Repeat but really that is not true and not even close to what they have been doing. There is more to the Blue Devils than meets the eye.

Good point, but they haven't always hired from within. Two of their most important instructors right now are Scott Chandler and Todd Ryan. Both are Madison Scouts alumni from the 1970s. Also Michael Cesario has had a hand in the look of BD and some of the ideas behind many shows. See the interview Scott Chandler does with Michael. I actually just posted a link to it on the BD 2024 thread. In the early days of bringing BD to prominence many of their staff were Santa Clara Vanguard alumni. Wayne Downey marched with SCV for a few years and won a ring with them. But you're right in that as the program became so strong with staff and design teams being there for many years it allowed them to train others and pass on the wisdom and experience of how to run things and how to design and teach.

Boston will bring another fantastic show to the field, just like they did this year, last year, and many years prior. They are championship caliber. Caption strength is amazing and I do not see that changing.

Speaking of show design this clip between Michael Cesario and Scott Chandler is very cool.

It's not easy. Right after Finals I always feel like summer ended even though technically summer does not end until September 21 or something like that. I managed to finish all my field charting for other bands and some music arrangements as well. Most of that has to be finished by early to mid July. I continue to gig on the trombone and try to take in as much College Football as I can. I am not as much into the NFL. Only really watch come the playoffs. This is mostly due to the Cleveland Browns having poor management. Fall is great for beautiful weekend drives on the backroads as the leaves change colors and the weather cools. We love finiding neat B&B places and going to neat and small midwest town. We will usually pick 2 or 3 weekends to hit places like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Lake Chautauqua (NY), and Columbus. My girl loves Musicals, and for me it's all about the Cleveland Orchestra. As we get closer to Thanksgiving and beyond my girl and I head to NYC for a few Broadway shows. Got to see Patrick Page do his last show with Hadestown on December 30 over New Year's weekend last year. Amazing performance and incredible show. Somewhere in there if we get enough snow (usually by mid-to-late December I will go skiing, but usually Ski season in NE Ohio, Upstate NY begins in January.

I would be happy if Blue Devils went back to the Dance Derby of the Century show and did it right. Only call the show Dance Derby from Then to Now! Think slow opening with a modern arrangement of Moonlight Serenade (Glenn Miller), then Benny Goodman's Sing Sing Sing or something similar, then move to Stan Kenton's Cuban Fire (listen to link below). After this section move to a percussion feature with a modern version of Dave Grusin's Mountain Dance (see 2nd link below). Do some original music with split percussion ( or pit vs battery ) with some dance-off fun, then close with Gordon Goodwin's Sing Sang Sung (link below). I think it would be a killer show...and with their guard -- Oh heck yes this would be incredible. https://youtu.be/RbT7lfOMnJ8 Dave Grusin - Mountain Dance Gordon Goodwin - Sing Sang Sung

I liked the whole post. Not easy for sure and setup time would be even longer. There is always the danger of electronics with weather but we already have that. Honestly I thought some of these things were coming (special effects lighting, video, more natural sounds and sound effects) after the Bluecoats absolutely turned the activity upside-down with Downside-Up. With all credit to Blue Devils use of props in 2019, the 2016 Bluecoats is the most amazing and large-scale use of props I have ever seen. Now take what Bluecoats did that year and marry that with what Boston Crusaders did in 2021 during the exhibition year and you are beginning to get somewhere. My girlfriend and I did not do DCI Finals this year (we will be there next year) because we went to Orlando and did a 3-day weekend at Universal Studios, Islands of Adventure, and City Walk. One of the big things there now is how well they can do 3D video/Animation and marry it with a short coaster ride or some tricked-out coaster or bus or seating arrangement. There would be a cost for video panels, lighting, 3D tech if possible, and working the sound system would require a real pro or perhaps 2 or 3 people doing any number of things. Maybe DCI needs an experimental FUTURE CORPS division for those corps (big or small) that wish to try some of this stuff.

I am bullish on most corps from a show/performance perspective. I am not going to get into staff, design team, money, management or any of that stuff. I really enjoyed almost all the shows this year. There are always little things that I didn't care for but that is common with most shows. Blue Devils - Stock is always up (buy more if you can). Great show. Fun music. Easy to watch and enjoy. Great performance of course. The Blue Devils do the very thing that I think is most difficult to do in DCI...and that is to be consistent. Bluecoats - Stock is always up (buy more if you can). Bloo does Bloo well. They take risks but they also have fun and get the crowd engaged. Personally did not care for the concept of the show but the beauty of that was I didn't need to care about the concept. The show still worked from an entertainment perspective. Staging, choreography, body, and drill continue to be top notch. Music book was fun and rhythmic. Carolina Crown - Stock up (may buy more). Loved the show. May be my favorite show of the summer. Did not start that way but it ended up that way. I did get to see them live in Pittsburgh and that helped. They were a tour-de-force live. Brass and percussion were great. Guard was fantastic. More shows like this for the future and I will be very happy. Boston Crusaders - Stock Hold (It's good stock, just not sure if I am buying more). I fully expect Boston to be top 4 again. I expect they will have incredible performance captions just as they did this year. Looking forward to seeing what the theme/concept is. If the goal is to win then they are close but have not yet put together the total package. If it was so easy everyone would do it. Boston knows that what they are trying to do is extremely difficult. Regardless, top 4 is amazing and I still enjoyed the show and loved their performances. The Cadets - Stock Up (BUT Hold and buy with caution). The 2023 show was fantastic! Brass, percussion and guard were rock solid to specacular at times. Do we apply an asterisk to their 5th place ranking? No! They earned it. Do we consider a possible return of Santa Clara? Yes. As far as what Cadets are doing with the members and staff their season was absolutely STOCK UP! When trying to predict rankings and scores for next season I think the Stock is a hold, wait and analyze. Once a corps moves into the 5th or 6th position it is more difficult to push into that next level. Trying to take on Boston, Crown, Bluecoats and BD is a difficult next step. Who ya gonna kick out? There is the prospect of a strong SCV returning. Mandarins - Stock Up (BUT Hold and buy with caution). Everything I said about Cadets is true here too. Fantastic corps this summer. Loved the show. GE was incredible. Great visual program overall. Moving up for next year? All the same things apply. Who ya gonna take out? Can you recruit the talent for top 5 or higher? Does the design team have it in them? And if they do, is it better than what the others have? The next steps for Cadets and Mandarins (and PR, Cavies) are the most difficult steps to take. The competition at the next level is serious, real, and those corps are not going anywhere. More later.

Personally I enjoyed just about everything with the 2023 season. Not sure there was a show I really didn't like. Congrats to the Blue Devils on their 21st Championship. Congrats to Bluecoats, Carolina Crown, and Boston Crusaders for the nail-biting competition and the fantastic shows. The Cadets, Mandarins, and Phantom all had fantastic and fan friendly shows and gave us so much to look forward to. I got to see Cavaliers live in Pittsburgh and by then the show had really come together. They were a treat. Percussion was WOW, but I enjoyed the whole show. Colts, Troopers, Blue Stars and BK were all amazing as well. Saw Spirit of Atlanta live and that was one of my favorite shows this year. I absolutely loved the Seattle Cascades. Watching them was a joy and I loved their music. I feel Madison made big improvements with their brass and percussion. They need to get the visual and total show development going. I think they were young and very talented. =========== As for the 2024 season here are some ramblings. When it comes to score and rank if a corps did not place as high this season as they did in 2022 it does not mean they took a step back. Sometimes the competition is super strong, and you never know how judges will read certain things. Take Boston. Last year they were tied for 2nd. This year 4th. Do I think they took a step back? No. Sure, we can argue show design. This idea didn't work, this one did...etc. To me their brass, perc, and guard have not lost any level of talent. In fact I think they were 2nd in brass, percussion and guard in Semifinals. Sometimes you just get a tough judge who catches something or just sees it differently. Bottom line: they have great caption strength and I suspect they will be amazing once again in 2024. If your favorite corps moved up a notch or two from last summer it doesn't mean the next place up is guaranteed. In 1989 when Phantom Regiment took 2nd a lot of folks thought they were destined for 1st in 1990. Ended up tied for 4th with Blue Devils. Madison won the title in 1988 and fell way back in 1989. The Cadets won in 1990 and fell to 6th in 1991. Bluecoats were making big gains in 2005 (5th), 2006 (4th), then fell to 7th. Then 8th. In 2010 they took 3rd...then fell again. It was not until the Tilt show in 2014 that began a more consistent run for them. Consistency is the most difficult thing in DCI competition. Recruiting, design, teaching, management, money, support, etc. all add up. In terms of entertainment I feel most of the corps were genuinely trying to give the fans something to enjoy while also being competitive. Hopefully we see more of this in 2024. Don't let design get in the way of great music and great visual ideas. There were still times during this past season where I felt some shows were designed in such a way (or the theme/concept was too out there) that it made life difficult for staff when cleaning, and also for the designers when rewrites were needed. There are still too many occasions when corps are doing needless body moves that absolutely mean nothing to the show and just add clutter. Stop. Unless it has some real meaning, or just add to a unique visual, it is not necessary just so you can show simultaneous demand. In some cases whatever you gain in demand (if anything) you likely lose in GE or Visual Analysis unless it really makes sense. Let's hope all the corps have successful off-seasons in terms of funding, retention, recruitment, and all their other ventures.

This would not even the playing field because it wasn't even when the season started and it's not even when most shows start. Changing the order doesn't do much. To think that putting BD on 1st or 2nd changes things is crazy. They still win. Any of the top 5 or 6 corps could have gone on 1st and they still would have been top 6. Before the season everyone knew who the top 4 corps would be. It was no secret. They had the talent and the experienced staff and design teams. Furthermore this is what the regionals are for. The corps come out and perform at all those early shows to get their consistency and design in place. Then there are a few shows that do determine order of performance for San Antonio, then again for Atlanta, and again for DCI East. Ultimately this determines the order of DCI Quarters. Why take that away from the corps who have worked so hard to earn their performance spot? If a corps has consistently beat another corps the so be it. They get to perform after.

Meehan's name was listed as helping with music for this summer. If I read the release correctly it was sometime in the spring that he got the job. Dave Glyde writes most of BD's brass book and he composes a lot of the transitions from tune to tune. John was doing some arranging but not all of it after Wayne retired. In terms of JM taking the Calgary job I bet it's a pretty good gig and you live in a beautiful region of Canada. More affordable living too vs California. But as for why he left I have no clue. Those are personal decisions and he's been with BD for a long time.

They have definitely had people retire over the years. Wayne Downey retired from BD A after the 2014 season. John Meehan left before this season started to take a new gig with Calgary Stampede Showband. They brought in a new executive director maybe 2 or 3 years ago, maybe less.

No flaming coming from me. I understand the sentiment for sure. Blue Devils have a complex mix of visual content and musical repertoire. If we look at effect itself BD creates the most varied and numerous types of effect. They use a lot of musical styles in various genres, keys, tempos, and meter and mix with unique visual ideas to build effect. Visually they do not overuse ideas and do the best job of keeping the show moving forward. Their visual proficiency is incredible. Their detail in the upper body, legs, feet, movement synchronicity is still tops. Their guard clearly gave a masterclass last night. So much detail in body. The flag work was astonishing and the rifle work was the most exposed. In brass and percussion they no longer consistently win those captions...though they are capable. They took 4th in brass and percussion last night. But their music analysis is still fantastic and that has a lot to do with all the musical styles/genres and a perfect blending of those elements. Overall show design is a big deal. We all know this and if Bluecoats, Crown and Boston want to take the next step that is where it starts. They all did great this year. We'll see what happens tonight.

This might be what some think but no a corps could not score a max 10 in achievement when their content is a 5. Take brass. If a corps is judged to have a content score of 7.1 and their achievement is 6.8, the judge will not reward the corps with a content score of 5 with an achievement score of 8. Both content and achievement are weighted to things like demand, musicality, performance and competitive rank. Example: Corps A performs - they are ok but the brass book is easy and they are playing it fairly well. Judge may assign CONT 4.5 and ACHV 4.3. The judge is essentially saying you are playing your book close to the level of demand/musicianship (or lack of). Some may think "well why isn't the ACHV score closer to a 9.0?" The content is too easy for a 9.0+ in ACHV. The best that corps could do in ACHV is maybe a 4.7 or 4.8, and that would likely be closer to end of season -- providing their CONT score was still 4.5. This is where Box 1-5 come into play. If your CONT is somewhere in Box 2 (very easy side) then your max ACHV score will be weighted to that Box 2 as well as to the competing corps around you that are in a similar Box in terms of demand/content. Here the judge is saying you are matching or exceeding the performance of a fairly easy book. But...keep in mind that matching or exceeding does not mean perfect, and just playing the notes does not mean it is musical. More importantly because there has to be competitive balance you just can't give an easy book a 9.5 or better in ACHV. That is reserved for corps who demonstrate much higher demand in content/musicality as related to their performance. So these things are boxed off. If you want your ACHV scores in brass to potentially get into the 9.0+ range then you need your CONT score to be in the 9.0+ range...or at least an 8.8 to 8.9. Most brass lines never get there. Those that do are able to raise the level of both CONT and ACHV by having a very demanding book that will be shaped musically through the season. The demand may be there from day one, but the musical shaping of the book changes and that usually ramps up the CONT number.

No doubt. The 86 and 87 shows definitely had that Russian theme along with repeats of music from numerous years. It was a different time too. That was normal with many corps. BD often brought back music from one year to the next. Phantom Regiment did Spartacus in 1981 and 1982. But yes, I was mostly speaking about the cost for getting the rights to do Phantom of the Opera. But who knows...maybe the management and legal team at Phantom of the Opera was like "hey, we're making buckets of cash. No deal needed. Just go play our music and give us credit." 🙂 I have a feeling, however, it was not that easy.

I am not sure what the real story is but I know they had to pay a boatload of cash to get the rights to arrange and the mechanical license for the DCI recordings. Keep in mind that Phantom had only just hit Broadway in 1986 or 1987, so for SCV to be doing a full show on that musical was almost unheard of at that time. Given the money they likely spent, if I was Gail Royer I would have opted to do a second year of Phantom just to get my money worth. Of course both are great shows though I was more partial to the 1988 version. This is likely due to having seen it live and just being overwhelmed by the music. That first impression always stays with you.

I'll be honest...no I do not want to talk about SCV. Not right now. It is Finals week. I think people want to enjoy watching drum corps and celebrating the corps on tour. As we get more into the Fall I am sure more will be discussed about SCV and their health and potential return.

I was at the Pittsburgh show last night and Carolina Crown was in top form. We were wowed with the show. It is so much cleaner now from a visual perspective. The percussion line is really sounding good and their music is well written. Brass was so amazing...almost darn perfect to my ears. My girlfriend was dropping her jaw through most of the show. She is a choral educator. It's a real dogfight this year. Crown, BD, Bloo, and Boston could all win. Maybe we get a 4-way tie. Who knows, but seeing Crown live is so different from the streams. My heart was so happy to see Carolina in person (and BD too...they were spectacular as well). Crown's music book may be my favorite this summer. That is saying a lot too because I love BD's book, love Boston, and Cadets are thrilling. I wish I could go to Finals. This would be the year to go. I hope we get a repeat of this kind of competitive year next summer. Anyway, congrats Carolina Crown. You blew that crowd away last night. It was state-of-the art and I loved every second.