vanguard87

I'm really sorry to hear that. I can tell you that Tim Salzman (SCV's brass caption head) attended that very workshop and referred to it often, and "Clevenger" became a code-word in the SCV horn line. I'm sure I'm getting the details of this wrong after so many years, but at one point one of the attendees said something like "that's all well and good, but you're playing on the world's finest horns and our kids are playing two-valve G bugles". This must have been a frequent objection, because Dale then pulled out a length of garden hose, stuck a mouthpiece in one end, and made it sound wonderful.

Because you joined late, QC, you missed out on the 1.0 version of the drum solo "drill". The blue flags were already a climb-down from the original idea, which was to have the horn line full-on dance with the guard. Dave Owens brought in a choreographer at a very early-season camp (February or March, maybe). Her big mistake was to start with the low brass. I remember the session lasted for less than an hour, with the choreographer looking increasingly distressed as it went on. We were all pretty inept, but in particular the contra line doing lifts with each other was quite a spectacle. So the dancing became the blue flags, which eventually became the hand movements. I really wish GR and Dave had stuck to their guns. As with the props and costumes starting in 1986, a dancing SCV horn line in 1984 would have been 25 years ahead of its time.

Hey TRacer, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I just want to correct the record a little bit. SCV marched 4/6/8 low brass UNTIL 85. That was the first year with six leads. The horn line went from 64 to 68 in 1985: two more lead sops, two more lead baris (a 64-person horn line is why box rotations worked prior to 84). The white pants debuted at Pacific Procession, SCV's home show (but it's true that we only wore the whites at "major" shows and only at finals of regionals and championship week; it's likely that DATR was the second time we wore them). And it wasn't a spur of the moment decision by GR. We warmed up at the hall (a 10-ish minute bus ride from the stadium at San Jose State) and not the stadium. I don't remember if we put on our uniforms at the hall or on the buses, but if we warmed up in our regular clothes that by itself would have been a sign that something was up. When we arrived at the stadium (just minutes before we were supposed to enter the field), the buses parked as close to the gate as possible, and in a triangle formation, with the bus doors facing in. Now something to remember here is that by and large, the horn line was lukewarm to downright hostile to the uniform change. In fact, being one of the few non-rookies in that horn line, I was one of the most vocal critics (and the day GR summoned me into his office and let me know what he thought of my opinion.... is a story for another day). Up to then, we had only seen one person model the white pants in full uniform, and to tell you the truth, to this day I think on individual people, the green pants look better. HOWEVER, once we got off the buses, inside that triangle, and saw the entire horn and drum line together, we collectively realized how awesome the white pants were on the entire ensemble, and we got super-pumped just as we were about to enter the field. Don't blame the tool... I procured a DEG Dynasty II two-valve G baritone for the 2017 SCV Alumni Corps, so I have relatively recent experience playing it. Is it a good instrument? Of course not, but it's perfectly cromulent if you put in the work with a tuner and the first-valve slide and just accept the fact that every high-A is a roll of the dice. Here's the thing about that horn. Like any horn it gets louder the more quality air you put into it, but at the upper end of the volume range there's a point where if you give it just a bit more air, there's big jump in volume. It's like it has a turbocharger. HOWEVER, put just a tiny bit more air than that into it, it suddenly sounds like a chain saw hitting metal. I'll add something about Whitewater finals: We won prelims, but we performed next to last at finals, with Garfield performing last as they had won Whitewater in 83. So after performing and trooping the stands we circled it up in the side 2 end zone instead of outside the stadium, because we immediately had to start retreat after Garfield finished. GR talked about how we did like always, and then we were dismissed. So we (SCV) were all in the end zone when the domino incident happened, and I was roughly in line with the front hash mark. Basically I had a head-on view of what happened, and from that vantage point it actually didn't register what was happening for a couple of seconds, just a bunch of arms and torsos where they shouldn't be.

Wow, good guess!

Wow, good guess!

I came up with the exact same list, and also Gershwin, but only Rhapsody in Blue, which is odd. That 84 Garfield was spared is also odd.

Most corps would be much better off paying down debt and otherwise shoring up their balance sheets than reducing tour fees or splurging on new equipment. It's not the nice option (cut tour fees) or the sexy option (new stuff), but its the smart option.

At least three SCV alums.

Now there's a video up synced to Alan's tape, although not surprisingly he doesn't say anything interesting while he's tearing around the field. Also, to me it sounds like at the end of the show he says "You really made me run!"

Yes, that's Ralph's writing. He wrote SCV's book through 1990. Also, trivia note, that's me in the center of the screen on the last note of the show.

Bravo, caliswift! DCP would be a much, much better place if, whenever we see a thread start to derail, we post Alison Brie gifs. We can all agree to that, can't we?

I could be wrong but I think only United flies non-stop to Indy. In my experience the fare is lowest between February and April, but even then it doesn't get much below $380 or so. If you see a fare below $400 you should snap it up immediately. You can more than make up the premium you'd pay for a flight now by waiting until late July to book a hotel, and then use Priceline's name-your-own-price feature. You'll save tons of money and/or stay in a swanky place. If you can take the whole week off and don't mind a bit of driving, I think you'd get the most bang for your buck by flying into Columbus on the 2nd or 3rd (less than $500 even now) and catching the TOC show in Massilon on the 4th (the top corps, outdoors, almost Finals-ready), then heading to Indy.

This is pretty much the go-to explanation, as far as I'm concerned: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-is-everyone-on-the-internet-so-angry/ The only thing I'd add is the Dunning-Kruger effect: There's a tendency (only a tendency, and not necessarily applicable to anyone on DCP) for, shall we say, ill-informed people to be arrogant in their opinions, because one of the things they're ignorant of is the limits of their expertise, and for well-informed people to hold their tongues because they are acutely aware of how much they don't know. Regarding DCP in particular, I'd say there are two other factors that certainly don't help discourse. First, almost all of us are not just drum corps fans, but partisans of one corps in particular. Second, there's just no way to conclusively "prove" that one horn line, guard, etc. is better than another the same way instant replay can prove something in sports. I agree that vitriol on DCP is small potatoes compared to say, YouTube, as well as to RAMD.

I think it's partly survivor bias as applied to message board posting. An attitude of humility about your own opinion and respect for differing opinions is going to bias you toward not posting, and not get sucked into flame wars; the opposite attitude, the opposite.

But that's not "slotting" as the word is commonly used. People cry "slotting!" when Corps X, which historically beats Corps Y, beats Corps Y and in their opinion Corps Y should have beaten Corps X. It's that last part that separates "slotting" from mere "here we go again". Slotting means that the outcome is predetermined regardless of what happens on the field. Certain corps have institutional advantages and a history of success that begets more success, and while that may make things somewhat predictable, that's not "slotting" any more than Brazil beating Chile and the Netherlands beating Mexico in the World Cup is "slotting". In order for "slotting" to be a thing, two things have to be true: 1) the outcome is predictable, and 2) the outcome is wrong (and consistently in certain corps' favor). Show me evidence of the latter.

Yeah..... no.

It's always amusing when people get all huffy and defensive about their own team, but... can't.... help........ myself.............. 1 Carolina Crown 98.300 2 Blue Devils 98.050 3 The Cadets 96.950 4 Santa Clara Vanguard 96.850 5 Bluecoats 93.350

And as I said, by Pasadena it was clear they had pulled away. No slotting needed. Anyway I don't mean to quibble about specific examples. My point is that it's very easy to toss the word "slotting" around but very difficult, at best, to point to clear-cut examples of it. Now competitive inertia, on the other hand, is a very real thing IMO, especially the first couple weeks of the season.

That all of the top 7 beat each other at some point that year is evidence against slotting, not for. I was at finals that year. True, the Cadevaliers were the top 3, but they were clearly a cut above 4-7 on finals night (and IMO they clearly finished in the correct order 1-2-3). As for 4-7, it's a shame that it's so easy to remember placement and so hard to remember scores.IIRC there was something like 0.6 separating 4th from 7th (and IMO the four really were that close). It was a four-corps pile-up that someone had to be on the bottom of. Tough break, but I don't think you can claim that Bloo was clearly better than Regiment that night (or vice versa).

Evidence please. Just to use the examples in the preceding handful of posts--in what year was Bluecoats among the best three performing corps and fail to medal? In what year were the Blue Devils the sixth-best corps and yet were gifted second? In what year did a historically 14th-15th place corps perform as well as the eighth-best corps and yet barely scrape into finals?

I'll repeat my suggestion to Sam: The Blue Devils are in LA right this minute (Riverside, but still...). They'll be there through Sunday. If you refuse to give DCI a dime, fine, but at least go to a rehearsal, watch a run-through. Maybe even introduce yourself to a current marching member. Then let us know if you still feel the same way.

Sam, Not giving money to DCI by buying a ticket is your prerogative, of course, but I strongly recommend that you see your alma mater rehearse and do a run-through this weekend while they're in Southern California. The Blue Devils are something else this year, and you'd really be missing out.

What Cleveland1 said, basically. Sometimes it takes more than a year for a new system to take hold. Happens all the time in sports. The corollary to this is that rapid staff turnover, with constant changes in system, can be a killer (although giving the wrong person years and years is no better). Also, sometimes staff move on for professional or personal reasons. Not every change happens because someone got fired. But more importantly--It's the first week of the season. Nobody should be panicking about their team's placement (or clearing space for a trophy). Also, not to hijack the thread, but I object to statements like "Corps X has Corps Y's staff", especially when they've been in place for multiple years. It seems to me like a passive-aggressive way (maybe intentional, maybe not) of dismissing any success a corps might have with a new team. SCV has SCV's staff, period. One of the very first things JD Shaw said when he walked in the door--and it's turned out to be true, IMO--was that SCV was not going to sound like (JD's spin on) Regiment; it would sound like (JD's spin on) SCV.

Aw man. Vanguard steps off in half an hour; you couldn't wait a bit longer? Oh well, there are still some more presents wrapped up under the tree.

1. Anybody who has seen a particular corps enough to form a strong (particularly a strongly positive) opinion before the season even starts is likely to be an alum/parent/superfan with a bias to that corps. 2. People forget to account for the drum corps version of the Flynn effect: On the whole, corps are getting better year to year (in technical proficiency and in designing points-maximizing shows), so it's entirely possible to be better than last year and not do better than last year. 3. Even if someone is aware of the tendency to overhype one's own corps, only an eccentric billionaire would have the means to get a read on all of the corps in the same peer group before the season starts. 4. The DCP equivalent of the Dunning-Kruger effect: Someone who is overhyping is likely to post on DCP; someone who knows better (or at least knows the value of being the corps that nobody saw coming) is likely to keep their mouth shut. 5. Talk is cheap. Incidentally, the flip side of the tendency to overhype your home team is the tendency to form iron-clad opinions about the opposition after the first webcast and a handful of online videos.