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Academy...why the special treatment, DCI


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To me, the issue isn't that Academy is getting special treatment. It's twofold:

1. DCI's website still states that the order is based upon Atlanta. Academy and Mandarins were not at Atlanta, therefore they should go first. Just change the text, DCI.

2. Performance order DOES make a difference, at least to the opening corps. If Academy went on first or second, then there's already a benchmark that would allow the judges to give the lower corps a more representative score than simply lowballing to save room.

If Academy is that good (and I think that they are), going on first would not hurt them but it could help others. Magic wasn't hurt by going on first in 2002.

I'm not going to complain about Academy because I think it's unwarranted, but these are REAL ISSUES that could use some discussion. Do we have to start another thread so this doesn't get derailed?

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they have proved it, as shown. By their first three shows and these past 2 shows. They've stepped off first at each show. You can't tell me that they've haven't proven something even with those 5 shows... Yah but still if you say they've proven nothing, you're full of it....

And wasn't it talked about before that the saturday show that they were at was part of the determining placement for Saturday...?

I think a lot of people are missing the point of this 'discussion'.

No one has said that Academy might not actually be capable of a strong top-twelve placement. The point is that actually, they haven't proven themselves against any of the corps that surround their seed for San Antonio. Their performance history has been against BD and SCV (way above their level) and Pacific Crest and Mandarins (well below their level).

Where was it talked about that their Saturday show (Div1 corps appearing: Academy, Mandarins, Pacific Crest) was a factor in determining their slot in SA???

Stepping off first against the Mandarins and PC didn't do anything to hurt them - if anything, it HELPED Mandarins and PC.

If anyone is trying to compare the competition present at the Long Beach show to that at Atlanta, their argument for placement for Academy falls apart.

It's easy to get side tracked by how good Academy may actually be. I've done it myself just now. The actual point is that, however good they may actually show themselves against actual competition, they have been given what appears to be an unfair gift with their seed for SA, in many people's opinion. If they are as good as many believe, stepping off close to the beginning of the afternoon show in SA shouldn't hamper them significantly. Might lower their score slightly, but if they are truly top-twelve material, they will climb there as they start an actual Div 1 touring schedule for the rest of the season.

Edited by willyc
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Every other Division I corps tours thousands of miles competing night after night to get to this little show called Atlanta...which suppose to, according to DCI.org, determine the order of appearance for San Antonio. Here we sit, Academy sitting on their butts half the summer because I heard from a reliable source that they had 4 days off in a row at one point this summer, and yet they get the privilage of not going on first, like they should, in San Antonio even though they were not in Atlanta. Sounds fishy.

Is DCI developing a new pet which resides in Arizona?

troll.jpg

Garry in Vegas

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I will stand to be corrected by anyone who actually knows what DCI's policy is regarding seeding at regionals, but I thought I understood that placement at San Antonio is determined by placement at Atlanta. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If this is the case, they should be going on very early at SA.

Apparently, DCI's policy is to use scores from more than just Atlanta.

If a corps can't muster the funding to do a Div 1 tour, they shouldn't be Div 1 - regardless how good they are!

But what is a "Div 1 tour"?

Where would DCI be if all corps decided that 15 performances (or whatever the actual number is - I believe I'm close).

I don't know. Maybe we'd have more corps. Maybe we'd have so many corps, they could only get 15 shows each.

A lot of fans wouldn't have a chance to see their favorite corps.

Why not? There's no rule preventing fans from traveling.

All corps could save money by cutting back on the scope of their tours.

Wait - that sounds like a good idea.

This decision isn't in the best interest of any of the corps from Glassmen (and maybe even the Colts) on down, in my opinion. It has belittled the efforts of these corps by 'rewarding' short tour corps with a placement that it doesn't 'deserve', if I understand the rules correctly.

Here's where you lose me. You talk as if Academy hasn't participated in the DCI tour. Fact is, the "DCI tour" had more than one event on July 14th. Academy, Mandarins, Pacific Crest and DCI agreed that those three corps would support the event in California that day, rather than go to Atlanta. Why should they be penalized for supporting a different branch of the DCI tour?

It may be that Academy actually deserves their placement, but since they haven't competed against any other corps other than the west coast corps, who actually knows? We hear so much about how day-to-day scores don't mean much, since corps aren't head to head, how do we (or DCI for that matter) actually know that they deserve to perform ahead of these other corps - WE DON'T on an objective basis.

Well, we don't know that corps X deserves to perform ahead of corps Y just because they edged them out by 0.1 a week earlier, either. But that's what DCI decided was a reasonable way to get performance order somewhere close to placement order. Likewise, scores from different shows on the same day, while not exactly comparable, do seem to line up within a couple of points of each other in DCI's judging system.

I will freely admit that this decision could most directly effect my corps - Spirit - because they have been, in effect, relegated to a 13 place by a corps who haven't subjected themselves to the competitive process that all of the other top 15 corps have, but I still maintain that Spirit isn't the only corps to suffer from this apparent deviation from the rules.

Bear in mind that "DCI" is the member corps. That means the corps (including Spirit) approved the idea.

Frankly, if I were with Spirit, I'd rather face Academy head-to-head. If Academy went on four hours before Spirit, and beat them anyway, we'd still hear all kinds of bellyaching about how it wasn't an accurate comparison because of the performance order.

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I still think when you face your competiton, en masse, for the first time, you should step off first...

Just wondering - had the Cavaliers taken the trip to Europe, would you have been in favor of them appearing first in the Allentown performance order?

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This is cool. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth about an upstart new corps not having paid it dues. Just like the old days...hmmm...Spirit of Atlanta, Pride of Cincinnati ('gonna make top twelve first year' hype), oh n lets not forget Star of Indiana.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited by Achilles
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Don't you just love to be parsed?

Apparently, DCI's policy is to use scores from more than just Atlanta.

Key word is "apparently". If someone can show me where the rules governing this are, I'd like to read them. They would settle the argument one way or another.

But what is a "Div 1 tour"?

The number of shows and scope of travel that Academy is doing this year (up to this point) is more akin to a typical Div 2 schedule

I don't know. Maybe we'd have more corps. Maybe we'd have so many corps, they could only get 15 shows each.

Maybe we would. But it could also serve to make each show better by having more corps at each of them.

Why not? There's no rule preventing fans from traveling.

No there isn't, but fans aren't likely to travel as far for local shows as they would for a regional. However, your point is made for the west coast fans anyway, since the activity takes their resident corps east for most of the season to compete against the rest of the DCI world.

Wait - that sounds like a good idea.

It is a good idea, on the financial level, but it serves to limit every corps exposure to fans. That isn't a good idea, in my opinion.

Here's where you lose me. You talk as if Academy hasn't participated in the DCI tour. Fact is, the "DCI tour" had more than one event on July 14th. Academy, Mandarins, Pacific Crest and DCI agreed that those three corps would support the event in California that day, rather than go to Atlanta. Why should they be penalized for supporting a different branch of the DCI tour?

It isn't a penalty, it's adherence to DCI policy.

Well, we don't know that corps X deserves to perform ahead of corps Y just because they edged them out by 0.1 a week earlier, either. But that's what DCI decided was a reasonable way to get performance order somewhere close to placement order. Likewise, scores from different shows on the same day, while not exactly comparable, do seem to line up within a couple of points of each other in DCI's judging system.

How can you make the case that they compare, when they don't compete against each other. The different shows, different panels discussion HAS been beaten to death. Head-to-head competition is the only way to actually know how corps line up against each other......same panel, same night over a series of competitions.

Bear in mind that "DCI" is the member corps. That means the corps (including Spirit) approved the idea.

I rather doubt that the member corps got to vote on the seed for San Antonio. If you say that member corps approved the idea, what "idea" are you talking about. All I have been asking for is for someone to clearly state what policies drove the rational for the performance placement at San Antonion. To date, no one has actually come up with more than placement at the previous regional - Atlanta. If there's more to it, I'd like to hear it - not someone's opinion, but the actual DCI rule.

Frankly, if I were with Spirit, I'd rather face Academy head-to-head. If Academy went on four hours before Spirit, and beat them anyway, we'd still hear all kinds of bellyaching about how it wasn't an accurate comparison because of the performance order.

I suspect you wouldn't get ANY bellyaching if this was the case. It would be CLEAR evidence that Academy was better on that day! And by the way, it's not just Spirit. Colts, Glassmen Spirit and Blue Stars could all be affected competitively by this. If Academy is really the cream that many believe, they will rise to the top, even following the rules (I'm not implying that Academy, as a corps has broken any rules - just that they are the beneficiaries of an apparently arbitrary decision).

It's too bad that Academy's score in San Antonio should have an asterisk beside it. THATS whats not fair for them.

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...

I will stand to be corrected by anyone who actually knows what DCI's policy is regarding seeding at regionals, but I thought I understood that placement at San Antonio is determined by placement at Atlanta. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If this is the case, they should be going on very early at SA.

If a corps can't muster the funding to do a Div 1 tour, they shouldn't be Div 1 - regardless how good they are!

...

I don't know the policy regarding seeding for performance orders, and so I didn't address that.

However, the DCI BOD set it up so that corps such as Academy can do a DCI regional tour. We've seen other corps do this before this year. So, to state, <<f a corps can't muster the funding to do a Div 1 tour, they shouldn't be Div 1>>, they ARE doing a DCI Division I tour, as allowed for by the DCI BOD. These are the same people who have corps that might be outscored by any corps doing a more limited regional tour. They made their decision based on what was best for the activity.

I've seen the BOD in action. They truly are stewards of the entire activity and not just their own corps.

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