SCVsopAaron's blunt review of SA...

[euponitone]

I was at the Atlanta show with goldingna and before we had talked to the "top 6 caption head" there was something about Cadets' sound that I couldn't put my finger on either. They were noticeably louder than the rest of the corps; in the dome, their sound appeared to be reaching my ears differently than all the previous corps; it was a noticeably brighter/edgy-er sound than others; when the horn line was in different parts of the field some of their sound was still at the forefront, and it just struck me as odd.

So, goldingna and I were just (edited, for use of profanity - EE) with the "caption head" after the competition about the various shows and Cadets' show - which largely centers around voice amplification - came up. We all laughed about how the one guy sounds like Napoleon Dynamite and I mentioned how it was kinda funny that earlier in the season you could really hear the individuals out of breath when they took their cues to speak. That was when the "caption head" told us that it was some of the reason for the blasty-er/louder sound. All of a sudden, it clicked in my head that amplification might have been the reason for some of the discrepancies.

Now, the "caption head" didn't say that the Cadets were trying to use it to an unfair advantage, to belittle the Cadets' effort, or to promote a conspiracy. I think he mentioned it because it's true and he knows what he is talking about.

Having extensive experience while in the Navy band as a sound tech and trumpet player in the same big band we were mic-ing (with huge amps, mains and a $10,000 digital sound board), I know a thing or two about sound reenforcement. If the wireless microphones on the kids were left on during the entire show, yes, it would pick up the surrounding sounds in the horn line and drum line. It wouldn't be enough to make people noticeably stick out like a solo mic or anything, but if you have 5 kids with mics in a tight (i.e. cadets drill) formations - a presence would be projected through the mains (speakers for the layman). You wouldn't believe all the crap - mere whispers - being picked up from the stage. I mean, that's how politicians get into trouble.....

So, it's not entirely impossible for live microphones to be doing their job - amplifying sound. That's the whole challenge with sound reenforcement - amplifying (sometime manipulating) only the sounds you want. The Cadets know more than anyone the challenges of on-field amplification.

Ill make this really simple. The sound board operator turns the mics on and off as it is each members turn to speak. I know this because several times, in rehearsals, and even in shows, ive seen instances where he did not turn a members mic on in time, and their quote was partially cut off or missed.

[Browniebrick]

~~~

Edited July 24, 2007 by Browniebrick

[euponitone]

I was at the Atlanta show with goldingna and before we had talked to the "top 6 caption head" there was something about Cadets' sound that I couldn't put my finger on either. They were noticeably louder than the rest of the corps; in the dome, their sound appeared to be reaching my ears differently than all the previous corps; it was a noticeably brighter/edgy-er sound than others; when the horn line was in different parts of the field some of their sound was still at the forefront, and it just struck me as odd.

So, goldingna and I were just (edited, for use of profanity - EE) with the "caption head" after the competition about the various shows and Cadets' show - which largely centers around voice amplification - came up. We all laughed about how the one guy sounds like Napoleon Dynamite and I mentioned how it was kinda funny that earlier in the season you could really hear the individuals out of breath when they took their cues to speak. That was when the "caption head" told us that it was some of the reason for the blasty-er/louder sound. All of a sudden, it clicked in my head that amplification might have been the reason for some of the discrepancies.

Now, the "caption head" didn't say that the Cadets were trying to use it to an unfair advantage, to belittle the Cadets' effort, or to promote a conspiracy. I think he mentioned it because it's true and he knows what he is talking about.

Having extensive experience while in the Navy band as a sound tech and trumpet player in the same big band we were mic-ing (with huge amps, mains and a $10,000 digital sound board), I know a thing or two about sound reenforcement. If the wireless microphones on the kids were left on during the entire show, yes, it would pick up the surrounding sounds in the horn line and drum line. It wouldn't be enough to make people noticeably stick out like a solo mic or anything, but if you have 5 kids with mics in a tight (i.e. cadets drill) formations - a presence would be projected through the mains (speakers for the layman). You wouldn't believe all the crap - mere whispers - being picked up from the stage. I mean, that's how politicians get into trouble.....

So, it's not entirely impossible for live microphones to be doing their job - amplifying sound. That's the whole challenge with sound reenforcement - amplifying (sometime manipulating) only the sounds you want. The Cadets know more than anyone the challenges of on-field amplification.

So has this opinion died a natural death??, Im surprised it hasnt sparked more controversy, but im not complaining either way ....

[hammondbrass]

Ill make this really simple. The sound board operator turns the mics on and off as it is each members turn to speak. I know this because several times, in rehearsals, and even in shows, ive seen instances where he did not turn a members mic on in time, and their quote was partially cut off or missed.

So we know that there are instances where they have forgotten to turn them on. Could there not, therefore, be instances where they have forgotten to turn them off? Or, the more likely senario - since every speaking part is broken up by several bars of playing throughout the entire show - wouldn't they just leave them on so they wouldn't miss the next cue?

Simply put, the microphone on the hornline member is meant for speaking, and would not be effective in amplifying a hornline.

And since many people in this forum believe that sound - several decibels louder than the human voice - couldn't be picked up, what would be the need to turn them off anyways?

This issue isn't that big of deal or "make or break" for me. It just piqued my interest, given my background, and adds more discussion to the famous topic of amplification. At its greatest potential, live sound reenforcement can only enhance what's already there but, more often than not, it only brings attention to the vehicle of the medium rather than the medium itself (i.e. like plain of glass meant to protect a work of art but is covered in dust/glare, thereby, attention is drawn away from the art itself - a duality of good and bad).

Also, those that took issue with goldingna's comments about Cavies hornline, check this out:

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=8...10-cdb55d0c57bf ----hornline sounds dirty and muddy, compared to other hornlines, to me.....

P.S. The "expletive" in my original post was "B.S." (another word for shooting the "#####").

[euponitone]

So we know that there are instances where they have forgotten to turn them on. Could there not, therefore, be instances where they have forgotten to turn them off? Or, the more likely senario - since every speaking part is broken up by several bars of playing throughout the entire show - wouldn't they just leave them on so they wouldn't miss the next cue?

And since many people in this forum believe that sound - several decibels louder than the human voice - couldn't be picked up, what would be the need to turn them off anyways?

This issue isn't that big of deal or "make or break" for me. It just piqued my interest, given my background, and adds more discussion to the famous topic of amplification. At its greatest potential, live sound reenforcement can only enhance what's already there but, more often than not, it only brings attention to the vehicle of the medium rather than the medium itself (i.e. like plain of glass meant to protect a work of art but is covered in dust/glare, thereby, attention is drawn away from the art itself - a duality of good and bad).

Also, those that took issue with goldingna's comments about Cavies hornline, check this out:

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=8...10-cdb55d0c57bf ----hornline sounds dirty and muddy, compared to other hornlines, to me.....

P.S. The "expletive" in my original post was "B.S." (another word for shooting the "#####").

Unfortunately, it is a big deal. Amplifying brass instruments is not allowed under the current rule system. We went through great pains last year with amy the singer to avoid any brass instrument feeding into her mic. I assume the corps is doing the same this year. Also, its kind of insulting to suggest to a hornline that their 'extra edge' in volume is due to foul play. Ask anyone who has heard them in brass rehearsal or warmups, and they will tell it like it is. Im not saying they deserve to win brass (havent heard everyone in a while), but theyre #### loud and its natural.

Here's another thing i thought of. I have witnessed several cadet ensemble rehearsals (late june and some in july). In these rehearsals, tom and gino often ask for runs of sections with the mics turned off, so they can better hear and evaluate the ensemble issues. For these chunks, the performers go through all the motions, speaking the parts, but the sound board/mics are off. Never did I hear a dip in volume in these sections though....

[Medeabrass]

. Im not saying they deserve to win brass (havent heard everyone in a while), but theyre #### loud and its natural.

"They're real and they're spectacular!" Sorry, this reminded me of Seinfeld and I had to laugh.

[tubadon]

Agreed...they have a very good "wind ensemble" approach to things that I happen to like. My only gripe, as with most hornlines, is I'd like more low brass presence. :)

Spoken like a true Euphonium player.

More Contra!!! and Euph.

[euponitone]

"They're real and they're spectacular!" Sorry, this reminded me of Seinfeld and I had to laugh.

Oooo, even i remember that one. And isnt that a beer commercial as well :P

[Medeabrass]

Spoken like a true Euphonium player.

More Contra!!! and Euph.

ha ha...guilty as charged...maybe that's the whole problem. apparently the yamaha euphs suck. therefore, no euphs in yamaha lines (except crown). I will say that I really like the yamaha baris though. They don't have the pea shooter bores like the old king 2 valvers had

edit: I'm hoping for a large % of the extra 15 next year to go towards the low brass. I know of a few instructors out there who really like to build from the bottom so I'm hoping for the best.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Medeabrass

[hammondbrass]

Also, its kind of insulting to suggest to a hornline that their 'extra edge' in volume is due to foul play.

By "edge," I meant in a negative-brass-sound sort of way. Really bright and edgy are terms to describe tone color. I didn't mean it like "they turn their amps to '11' for that little push over the cliff."