A: Competitive Inertia

[Bruckner8]

No, it's not at all, actually. It's a collection of coincidences, nothing more. If it were scientific you would be able to provide a mechanism, a predictive tool that could be tested.

LOL. WOW! Yes! That's EXACTLY WHAT I'M DOING! If Crown wins in 2009, the current CI will be debunked, and a new one will emerge. Just like how the Epicyle Theory of planetary motion kept changing as new info came to the fore, and ultimately replaced with Kepler's. Thank you for making my point for me.

It's interesting that people are jumping on the "I'll feel glee if CI is debunked" bandwagon, lol.

The theory gets reworked. It happens every day, in every R&D lab in the world.

Most importantly, on July 5, 2009, it has NOT been debunked.

Is DCI in need of new blood at the top, or what?? It's almost a psychological need at this point!

[Bruckner8]

For all that, you never once answered the man's very first question.

You man's fist Q is: "Does this C.I. theory only apply to finals?"

CI is about [new] champions. Champions are crowned (pun intended ) at Finals.

His question is like "who's buried in Grant tomb?"

[ShortAndFast]

Notice I mention 2 corps [star 90 & Cavies 90] on the same year I won with Cadets. Nope no bias. Any of us could have won.

...

If the judging didn't have an X factor like CI with zero bias and judging the shows in a vacuum .. I think DCI history would a lot different. Because history is the way it is ... I feel fortunate and lucky regardless of the blood I shed to reach my goals.

I guess I just don't see the "X Factor" here. It's not like the Cadets swept the field in '90. At finals, 3 judges had Star in first (field brass, brass ensemble and brass effect), 3 had Cavies in first (visual effect, field percussion and visual ensemble), and 2 had Cadets in first (percussion effect, percussion ensemble). So it doesn't look like the judges had any "CI" that made them unable to put Star and Cavies over Cadets. The majority of them did exactly that!

The spreads and math just worked out to give the Cadets the title that year.

Edited July 5, 2009 by ShortAndFast

[ShortAndFast]

My claim about having to win all captions is a GUESS on how it will have to go down in order to DISPROVE the current CI.

Yes, and as the philosophy of science teaches us, theories that are hard to disprove are the best kind, right?

Sarcasm aside, can we take this as a prediction? You'd agree that the CI theory is wrong if there's a new champion who doesn't sweep all the captions?

[supersop]

I guess I just don't see the "X Factor" here. It's not like the Cadets swept the field in '90. At finals, 3 judges had Star in first (brass, brass ensemble and brass effect), 3 had Cavies in first (visual effect, field percussion and visual ensemble), and 2 had Cadets in first (percussion effect, percussion ensemble). So it doesn't look like the judges had any "CI" that made them unable to put Star and Cavies over Cadets. The majority of them did exactly that!

The spreads and math just worked out to give the Cadets the title that year.

Yet I have the shiny thing that fits on my finger. And the point was, a new corps on top needs to sweep or have huge spreads in almost every caption to compensate for a weakness and still win the title.

Field percussion and Visual field and ensemble were the weaker spots for Star that year. .5 down in Total Visual and .5 down in Total Percussion. Way too much to overcome even though they won 3 captions by a total of .4 respectively. That being the case, I can understand why they were down .4 in total GE.

Cavies tied in total GE (usually a deciding factor for a title) yet, were down .1 in Percussion, .5 in Brass and .2 in Visual despite winning 2 of those captions by a total of .2

In other words, they were both great corps with strengths in certain areas but the TOTAL package wasn't strong enough to put them unquestionably over the top ... not yet anyway. I only feel that my corps won because we were strong in all captions and tied for the win in Total GE.

I'm not sold on CI entirely .. but folks asked for cases in point where it may have played a factor so I pointed out a few years where the 2nd or 3rd place corps COULD have won their 1st title if the masses had their way. After all, WE are the masses. This is the true point we are debating in this theory. It's about our lust for the sweetheart to win going against what history has shown since the inception of the NONtick system.

Sidenote: I could do this with 89 and then some might understand why SCV had a 98.8. Spread protection. 89 was a 2 dog race and not the tossup that 90 was. It was also a shame that the judging was different and did not include Ensemble (giving 15 additional points for GE with fewer judges)

[Bruckner8]

Yes, and as the philosophy of science teaches us, theories that are hard to disprove are the best kind, right?

Sarcasm aside, can we take this as a prediction? You'd agree that the CI theory is wrong if there's a new champion who doesn't sweep all the captions?

OMG, so so wrong. CI can only be disproved if a non-champ wins and hasn't placed 2nd or 3rd in a prior year.

The people hanging the "win all captions" part of the original post are just looking for something very unlikely to happen, in a "told you so with glee" kind of way. AGAIN (wow, lol), the whole point of that GUESS was to show HOW UNLIKELY IT IS!!!!!

[drumno5]

is it more important to have a high rate of returning members...or staff or both?

Down in the lower tier of finals, returning membership is at least as important, if not more so, than staff. In the upper echelon, returning membership is not as critical, because many of the so-called "rookies" in those groups have heavy experience before coming in board.

Fred O.

[ShortAndFast]

In other words, they [star & Cavies 90] were both great corps with strengths in certain areas but the TOTAL package wasn't strong enough to put them unquestionably over the top ... not yet anyway. I only feel that my corps [Cadets 90] won because we were strong in all captions and tied for the win in Total GE.

It seems to me that you won your ring because of the part in bold. The judges were not holding Star/Cavies back, nor pushing the Cadets ahead - they were happy to put either group on top when the performance justified it. But the Cadets were and are a great drum corps, and that year they were good everywhere and great in percussion. In contrast, Star/Cavies were great in one area, but fell short in others.

There's only been one year in DCI when a single corps swept all captions. So what played out in 1990 plays out all the time among the top groups. If we get Crown vs. BD for the title this year, I predict both will win some captions. The champion will be the one who keeps it closest in the others.

[Plan9]

It seems to me that you won your ring because of the part in bold. The judges were not holding Star/Cavies back, nor pushing the Cadets ahead - they were happy to put either group on top when the performance justified it. But the Cadets were and are a great drum corps, and that year they were good everywhere and great in percussion. In contrast, Star/Cavies were great in one area, but fell short in others.

There's only been one year in DCI when a single corps swept all captions. So what played out in 1990 plays out all the time among the top groups. If we get Crown vs. BD for the title this year, I predict both will win some captions. The champion will be the one who keeps it closest in the others.

I think the difference between this year and last year is that their are absolutely 4 corps capable of the title at this point with Cavies, Bluecoats & PR lurking just below (assuming Rick V. has a story build in the plan to foist on the unsuspecting mob at the end, like last year). Having said that, I think that PR's storyline this year isn't the same vehicle as last year and its darkness will be harder to make BIG like Spartcus (but no one should count them out!).

As far as SCV, Crown, BD and Cadets...they are all in the hunt and it's good for DCI and the activity. All 4 have a strong following suggesting that they are on a title pace. If things stay this close until the end the excitement will be palpable at finals. As an obvious BD fan, I have my favorite and I think you are correct in assuming BD and Crown will be battling for the ring, but I can't deny Cadets and SCV their shot.

[supersop]

It seems to me that you won your ring because of the part in bold. The judges were not holding Star/Cavies back, nor pushing the Cadets ahead - they were happy to put either group on top when the performance justified it. But the Cadets were and are a great drum corps, and that year they were good everywhere and great in percussion. In contrast, Star/Cavies were great in one area, but fell short in others.

There's only been one year in DCI when a single corps swept all captions. So what played out in 1990 plays out all the time among the top groups. If we get Crown vs. BD for the title this year, I predict both will win some captions. The champion will be the one who keeps it closest in the others.

Here's the underlying point that no champion ever wants to say .. and in this case supports CI.

Some of those captions we lost by .1 ...... should probably have been .3

Yes we were solid and consistent .... but in truth and (IMO) Stars hornline was .5 better than anyone that year

At least in that caption, I think it was a hands down situation ... no questions from anyone. And I could accept that then just as easily as I can now. The truth is, there was little to no room left in the spreads.

I guess that's one factor that isn't clearly pointed out in the CI Theory. On finals night, even if the corps trying to bust the CI theory get's a 10 in a caption, due to ranking the winner might get a 9.9 or 9.8 because a 9.5 would put them 6th in the caption when they should be 2nd or 3rd. Oops, no room left. Oops, no NEW winner.

Please do me the honor of NOT arguing this post. It's sad enough that I had to say it out loud.