A: Competitive Inertia

[FHdork]

Well, from this brass players perspective of the Quarterfinals theater presentation, Cadets DID get CI'ed into 5th - I would have had them in 4th - ahead of Crown. I thought they had more music GE than Crown - with a show that (musically) hung together better than Crown's effort. Crown played better...perhaps even better than their 1 tenth besting of Cadets. But I enjoyed the Cadets show more than Crown's -

I can't tell whether it's CI...or just that the judges felt Crown had earned the right to beat Cadets...

So tell me Bruckner: is CI a more broad kind of reading of scoring and less of a predictor of the outcome of a given show?

[Bruckner8]

Well, from this brass players perspective of the Quarterfinals theater presentation, Cadets DID get CI'ed into 5th - I would have had them in 4th - ahead of Crown. I thought they had more music GE than Crown - with a show that (musically) hung together better than Crown's effort. Crown played better...perhaps even better than their 1 tenth besting of Cadets. But I enjoyed the Cadets show more than Crown's -

I can't tell whether it's CI...or just that the judges felt Crown had earned the right to beat Cadets...

So tell me Bruckner: is CI a more broad kind of reading of scoring and less of a predictor of the outcome of a given show?

CI only says "You can't win until you've gotten 2nd or 3rd."

and "If it's close, tie goes to the corps with the most CI" or "you have to be 2 points better to win by a tenth."

[ShortAndFast]

With all of the GH resentment building up, who do you think has more CI these days, Crown or Cadets? I'm being dead serious here. I'd actually be impressed of the judges had "the nerve" to make a call against Cadets (who have WAY MORE CI than Crown over their lifetimes). It gives me hope, actually. Again, we're assuming they're very close to each other.

At least to my eyes, Crown & Cadets have indeed been judgement calls the last two years. Both strong groups achieving a lot, with different strengths and weaknesses. Neither one obviously better than the other. Nevertheless, for two seasons running, the judgement calls have gone to Crown.

I think inertia in judging is more short term than perhaps you do. While I do think judges are looking for programs to "prove themselves" by showing consistent excellence before they get big numbers, I think Crown has cleared those hurdles with the current crop of judges. The fact that Cadets have lifetime 9 championships and 3 decades at the top against Crown's single Ott is maybe not as important as what the two groups have done in the last two or three years.

[Big Bad Bari]

Wow... for all your logic-speak, you're confusing his point quite a bit. New and competent are entirely different ideas, but you're suggesting that competency is only gained by experience. Yet in your original statement, you discount the Bluecoats' director with one dismissive swipe at how he was a marching member. Mr. Fiedler was in the same situation that you're dismissing.

In other words, you're suggesting that years of service equal competence. (I take issue with the choice of "competence", so here after I'll call it competitive success...) So years served = competitive success. Yet we know that's not true. Hopkins won in his first year. Fiedler in his third. You're putting way, way too much emphasis in the corps director position. If you want to look at it carefully, you'll look at who has been successful as musical staff members... who's been there forever on the music staff... and who hasn't.

For example, Jim Casella can move over from SCV to Cavies and have instant street cred. Why? Because he and his team can take a very young, green drumline and get 19+ points out of them.

But even more, directors don't play a direct role in the corps' scores. It's the staff in critique. It's the staff doing the teaching. Most often, with plenty of exceptions, directors are more concerned with getting down the road, and making sure mundane things get done... like medical concerns, making sure there's toll money for drivers, meeting with housing hosts, and other boring #### like that. Do they play a role? Yes. But not a big one, usually. They usually don't have time.

I would take issue with you on your points and also do not award the OP any points on their side of this arguement... Here is MY take... It is definately "Competetive Success" and it is spawned by the spark, drive, desire level and moxy of the lead dog (Director in many cases) "THE CAPTAIN SETS THE PACE OF THE SHIP"

In most industry certainly mine... When there is a dynamic motivated leader running a system the system works and all is well in the world... When the agency decides it is tired of paying that talented dynamic leader and replace them with an excited motivated younger less experienced person... The system always falters and sales stop happening... This is a constant in most business models... It is not the system it is the speed with which things happen in the organization... So if you have a leader that requires everyone to work hard and be efficient then that is what you get... If not then not...

All leaders are not created equal... some are only good enough to lead a group to the bottom of the totem pole and others are great and can lead any group anywhere...

[Bruckner8]

I would take issue with you on your points and also do not award the OP any points on their side of this arguement... Here is MY take... It is definately "Competetive Success" and it is spawned by the spark, drive, desire level and moxy of the lead dog (Director in many cases) "THE CAPTAIN SETS THE PACE OF THE SHIP"

In most industry certainly mine... When there is a dynamic motivated leader running a system the system works and all is well in the world... When the agency decides it is tired of paying that talented dynamic leader and replace them with an excited motivated younger less experienced person... The system always falters and sales stop happening... This is a constant in most business models... It is not the system it is the speed with which things happen in the organization... So if you have a leader that requires everyone to work hard and be efficient then that is what you get... If not then not...

All leaders are not created equal... some are only good enough to lead a group to the bottom of the totem pole and others are great and can lead any group anywhere...

Anyone full of this much "rah-rah, go team" should understand CI better. These leaders of drum corps certain do.

And you can't compare industry with subjective judging.

Call it "competitive success" if you will....I certainly used the phrase "success breads success" in the OP. If you see yourself as one of these "leaders" then you're just full of yourself, wanting to put all of the success on your own leadership, and none of it on anyone else. Or possibly you hold someone up to such high regard, you see them as a hero or Savior. CI recognizes the good leaders, and how those leaders use human nature to their best competitive advantage in this highly subjective activity. Industry is not subjective: Either the product does what it's supposed to do, or it doesn't. If the product does it better than other products, you can charge higher prices. I don't care if the product is widgets, medical, service, consulting, spiritual...whatever. HOWEVER, think about what happens when free markets are replaced with government controls....THEN CI will become very very important. To simplify: Free markets are objective (entire market system decides); controlled markets are subjective (very few decide).

[dcialumni1989]

I don't disagree with you that Bluecoats had a better performance at Finals, nor do I disagree that the judges fall into the slotting trap; but it was obvious to me (and many others) that Bluecoats simply did not have the GE or Visual numbers to match Rosemont. Bluecoats had brass, drums, and guard that were all right there with Cavaliers (and they should have beat the Cavs in brass), but taking 4th in both GE captions and in Visual Ex hurt the 'Coats.

I think the judges got that part of it right. I was hoping they would come in 2nd at finals as well, but I don't lie to myself and I call it like it is, even if the corps is one I like or favor. The Bluecoats visual package, while much better, was still not on the same level as Rosemont. Their marching execution at finals was lacking, and I noticed timing errors in the feet and with drill sets hitting all 3 days at finals. Also, the GE in their show was good but not great. There were visual movements written into the ballad that just took away from the music. It's just little things here and there, nothing major. They were top 3 and that's amazing!

But it wasn't CI that kept them in 3rd place, it was not cleaning feet, timing errors, and just not having the visual design of a perennial big dog (like the Cavaliers) to get that spot. Maybe next year they take it all.

I just don't get this statement. Even when Cavaliers were losing to Bluecoats in overall score they were still beating them at times in horns. There were shows were cavaliers lost to them in visual, guard, and drums but beat them in horns. So, I think it is safe to say that the cavaliers horn line earned what they got on the field and wasn't relying on the success of their other captions. Also, unless you heard them on the field I don't know how you could really know who should and shouldn't be beating whom in field brass. It should be noted that coats did beat them pretty consistently in ensemble music (and deservedly so), but that doesn't mean that they were better on the field.

[Big Bad Bari]

Anyone full of this much "rah-rah, go team" should understand CI better. These leaders of drum corps certain do.

And you can't compare industry with subjective judging.

Call it "competitive success" if you will....I certainly used the phrase "success breads success" in the OP. If you see yourself as one of these "leaders" then you're just full of yourself, wanting to put all of the success on your own leadership, and none of it on anyone else. Or possibly you hold someone up to such high regard, you see them as a hero or Savior. CI recognizes the good leaders, and how those leaders use human nature to their best competitive advantage in this highly subjective activity. Industry is not subjective: Either the product does what it's supposed to do, or it doesn't. If the product does it better than other products, you can charge higher prices. I don't care if the product is widgets, medical, service, consulting, spiritual...whatever. HOWEVER, think about what happens when free markets are replaced with government controls....THEN CI will become very very important. To simplify: Free markets are objective (entire market system decides); controlled markets are subjective (very few decide).

Well I guess that is what you picked up from my post... Hmmmm interesting insight into you... Well I was merely a small cog in a big drum corps. If the same external influences do not affect drum corps as do industry please enlighten me... I marched for the Blue Devils and when I started "Jerry Seawright" was the director. He lead the corps through the finances but didn't get involved in the "on field" product... He passed the torch to Mike Moxely who was all about the "on field" product but also has good business experience and had the right drive to lead the corps... His heart was in the right place as he was one of the defectors from SCV to BD who vowed to beat the pants off of Mr. Royer... When Mike was ready to leave our long time Drum Major stepped up and being cut from the same cloth and having the same love for the organization Mr. Gibbs now leads the organization... I would not say HERO in fact back in the day Dave Gibbs (MY Drummajor) and I had many a dissagreement loud and publicly... So try as you may... You just cannot get traction with your fluffy explanation... It is a dynamic leader that makes things better than the others... Unless you are talking about an actual product... But since what one man can do so can another... If your product is something that comes from the training of others... It is the leader that takes the honors and then steps out of the way as the acalaides are being showered on his students!!!!!

Edited August 21, 2010 by Big Bad Bari

[Big Bad Bari]

Anyone full of this much "rah-rah, go team" should understand CI better. These leaders of drum corps certain do.

And you can't compare industry with subjective judging.

Call it "competitive success" if you will....I certainly used the phrase "success breads success" in the OP. If you see yourself as one of these "leaders" then you're just full of yourself, wanting to put all of the success on your own leadership, and none of it on anyone else. Or possibly you hold someone up to such high regard, you see them as a hero or Savior. CI recognizes the good leaders, and how those leaders use human nature to their best competitive advantage in this highly subjective activity. Industry is not subjective: Either the product does what it's supposed to do, or it doesn't. If the product does it better than other products, you can charge higher prices. I don't care if the product is widgets, medical, service, consulting, spiritual...whatever. HOWEVER, think about what happens when free markets are replaced with government controls....THEN CI will become very very important. To simplify: Free markets are objective (entire market system decides); controlled markets are subjective (very few decide).

Oh and I see what you are saying here in your OP... You are asserting that judging is dirty and that you have to pay homage to the (mob for lack of a better term) to get what is due you... I disagree with your 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll thoery and assert that the best unit wins every year and that there is nothing dirty in this youth organization except for the poor babies who do not get the results they want! THE BEST ARE THE BEST OVER AND OVER AGAIN BECAUSE THEY WORK HARDER FOR IT... Some do not know what it takes to be competetive and will learn... some are not willing to pay the actual price of success and others do it as a part of their everyday lives... Winners and Losers... I din't invent the concept but it came from somewhere...

Edited August 21, 2010 by Big Bad Bari

[drumcorpsfan4567]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but how can you call CI when the only reason a corps is losing to another corps is because of one or two judges? Example you said Blue Stars were not going to beat SCV but they beat them in every single performance caption except for visual ensemble. The big reason they lost was because of GE. How would you explain that situation, or situations like it?

I think judging is much more impacted by the opinions of individual judges and while it is obviously safer to put established corps ahead of other ones, I don't think there is a conspiracy or anything, or that a corps needs to have done something already before they can necessarily achieve something else.

[FHdork]

<best unit wins every year>

Big Bad Bari, you're a singularity among BD vets for your stand on the 2008 season. Kudos to you!