A: Competitive Inertia

[ftwdrummer]

On 8/13/2018 at 8:45 PM, BRASSO said:

 Yes, even the NY Mets went from 9th to 1st from '68 to '69... then didn't make the playoffs in '70.

 Sports have FAR more placement movements among their teams from season to season than DCI Drum Corps. College and Pro.

 Since 1976 when the Blue Devils won their 1st DCI Title, no sports team, College or Pro, has won anything remotely close to 18 Titles in this similar 1976-2018  time frame. Its completely unheard of.

Au contraire, mon frere!

The Blue Devils' first DCI title was 1976, so they've won 18 titles over 43 competitive seasons (this having been the 47th season of a DCI World Championship).

The New York Yankees first won the world series in 1923. 43 seasons inclusive from that point would be 1923-1965. Over that time, the Yankees won titles in 1923, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, and 1962--a grand total of 20 world titles in 43 years.

Not only is what the Blue Devils have done not unheard of, they're not even the most dominant team out there.

[BRASSO]

2 hours ago, ftwdrummer said:

Au contraire, mon frere!

The Blue Devils' first DCI title was 1976, so they've won 18 titles over 43 competitive seasons (this having been the 47th season of a DCI World Championship).

The New York Yankees first won the world series in 1923. 43 seasons inclusive from that point would be 1923-1965. Over that time, the Yankees won titles in 1923, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, and 1962--a grand total of 20 world titles in 43 years.

Not only is what the Blue Devils have done not unheard of, they're not even the most dominant team out there.

 You can't be serious with the attempt to compare BD and the Yankees titles numbers ( but I guess you are ). In 1923, the Yankees won vs. 15 other competitors..thats it 15. The Blue Devils ? Well, there were over 100 competitor " teams ", and 47 of them showed up at the Championships. Blacks and every other nationalities were allowed to compete in 1976 in DCI Drum Corps, and at DCI Championships. There was no racial, nationality exclusions.  MLB ?  How many black baseball players did the Yankees have in the 1923-1950;'s ? The answer ? zero. How many MLB teams did they top for MLB  Titles that had Black ball players ? Hispanic ball players ?  The answer again  is " zero ". Does the name Satchel Paige ring a bell ? If not, let me tell you about him. He is considered in some quarters perhaps the greatest pitcher in all of baseball history. If not the greatest, certainly one of THE greatest.  He ironically pitched from this time period. (1926-1965) too. 40 years of pro ball he pitched, Did the Yankees face him at all, even once,  in any games from 1923-1965 , regular season or playoffs in their titles won in this time ? The answer is " no ". Did the Yankees win these titles in these years vs. Dominican ball players on other teams ?  Asian ball players ? Did they have international players ?  The answer, once again, is " no ". The Blue Devils ? They won their titles vs. teams with international players, black players, hispanic players, all ethnic, national groups. Ever heard of the Bridgemen ? Did they have minorities in their Corps the Blue Devils competed with as a Corps competitor. Did the Blue Devils have minorities in the Corps when they won their titles, ?

 The Blue Devils won their 18 titles ( and still counting) in 42 years of existence. Over 40% of the years they have been in DCI competition, the Blue Devils have won a Title ( we have not even counted the runner ups ). The NY Yankees ? They started in 1913. They have contented for titles for over a hundred years.. over a century ( 105 years to be precise ). For more than half those years, minorities were not on their team nor on teams they won titles in those years.Again, , the Blue Devils titles won in the fashion they have is, as I stated above, unprecedented in in other sport realm since the BD started team competition in 1976. They have won every title, but one, ONE THE ROAD., in some seasons vs over 60 other competitors, of all mixes, genders, races, nationalities. The Yankees of 1923- 1965 won their titles vs. approx 15 other teams, most titles won at home in Yankees stadium, and vs. teams where at least half the Countries best baseball players were excluded from the competition. The NY Yankees have won 16 titles since only white players were allowed to played ( since 1948 ). Thats 16 in the last 69 years. Not bad, but not remotely close to what the Blue Devils have accomplished since 1976.... and we're not even counting 2nd, 3rd place Bd finishes, nor  BD not finishing any season out of the top tier. Unlike the NY Yankees that did have several very low placement years. Any other questions for me on this BD vs. NY Yankees comparison on titles won ?

Edited August 16, 2018 by BRASSO

[ftwdrummer]

1 minute ago, BRASSO said:

 You can't be serious with the attempt to compare BD and the Yankees titles numbers ( but I guess you are ). In 1923, the Yankees won vs. 15 other competitors..thats it 15. The Blue Devils ? Well, there were over 100 competitor " teams ", and 47 of them showed up at the Championships. Blacks and every other nationalities were allowed to compete in 1976 in DCI Drum Corps, and at DCI Championships. There was no racial, nationality exclusions.  MLB ?  How many black baseball players did the Yankees have in the 1923-1950;'s ? The answer ? zero. How many MLB teams did they top for MLB  Titles that had Black ball players ? Hispanic ball players ?  The answer again  is " zero ". Does the name Satchel Paige ring a bell ? If not, let me tell you about him. He is considered in some quarters perhaps the greatest pitcher in all of baseball history. If not the greatest, certainly one of THE greatest.  He ironically pitched from this time period. (1926-1965) too. 40 years of pro ball he pitched, Did the Yankees face him at all, even once,  in any games from 1923-1965 , regular season or playoffs in their titles won in this time ? The answer is " no ". Did the Yankees win these titles in these years vs. Dominican ball players on other teams ?  Asian ball players ? Did they have international players ?  The answer, once again, is " no ". The Blue Devils ? They won their titles vs. teams with international players, black players, hispanic players, all ethnic, national groups. Ever heard of the Bridgemen ? Did they have minorities in their Corps the Blue Devils competed with as a Corps competitor Did the Blue Devils have minorities in the Corps, ?

 The Blue Devils won their 18 titles ( and still counting) in 42 years of existence. Over 40% of the years they have been in DCI competition, the Blue Devils have won a Title ( we have not even counted the runner ups ). The NY Yankees ? They started in 1913. They have contented for titles for over a hundred years.. over a century ( 105 years to be precise ). For more than half those years, minorities were not on their team nor on teams thy won titles in those years. So please, the Blue Devils titles won in the fashion they have is, as I stated, unprecedented in in other spirts realm since the BD started team competition in 1976. They have won every title, but one, ONE THE ROAD., in some seasons vs over 60 other competitors, of all mixes, genders, races, nationsalities. The yankees of 1923- 1965 won their titles vs. approx 15 other teams, most titles won at home in Yankess stadium, and vs. teams where at least half the Countries best baseball players were excluded from the competition. Any other questions ?

I mean, I still occasionally wonder whether it's possible anyone speaks in as grandstanding a manner as you, but that's for a different day, I imagine.

[BRASSO]

37 minutes ago, ftwdrummer said:

I mean, I still occasionally wonder whether it's possible anyone speaks in as grandstanding a manner as you, but that's for a different day, I imagine.

 The person who does not stay on the topic, but instead 1st initiates an ad hominen personal attack with their reply in a discussion between the two, then cuts off the discussion that until then was civil between the two, is considered to have lost the discussion on the merits of the subject being discussed between the two. There is an old lawyer strategy taught, that If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If you find the facts are not on your side,then pound on the table. I did not " grandstand " I do not believe . That was pretty insulting in your snark like reply, and yet I  did not insult you, as near as I can tell anyway. But thanks for the baseball seating metaphor nonetheless.

Edited August 16, 2018 by BRASSO

[ftwdrummer]

3 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 The person who does not stay on the topic, but instead  1st initiates an ad hominen personal attack with their reply in a discussion between the two, then cuts off the discussion that until then was civil between the two, is considered to have lost the discussion on the merits. There is an old lawyer strategy taught, that  If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If you find the facts are not on your side,then pound on the table. I did not " grandstand " . But thanks for the baseball seating metaphor nonetheless.

If you don't call your tendency to adopt the most high-and-mighty phrasing possible (sacred duties, etc.) when posting here "grandstanding," I would love to know what your definiti9on of it would be.  I must admit, I got about a sentence into your post and figured that you were in full irrelevant-information-grandstanding mode, so moved on.

But since you want to discuss merits, let's discuss merits.

You said:

On 8/13/2018 at 8:45 PM, BRASSO said:

 Yes, even the NY Mets went from 9th to 1st from '68 to '69... then didn't make the playoffs in '70.

 Sports have FAR more placement movements among their teams from season to season than DCI Drum Corps. College and Pro.

 Since 1976 when the Blue Devils won their 1st DCI Title, no sports team, College or Pro, has won anything remotely close to 18 Titles in this similar 1976-2018  time frame. Its completely unheard of.

And that's factually untrue. At least one sports team has won anything remotely close to 18 titles in a similar timeframe.

Now, if you wanted to discuss that they did theirs before 1976-2018, that would be a reasonable critique, as you did say "Since 1976."

Instead, you went into a multi-paragraph diatribe about how that didn't count because of (the reprehensible) segregation in Major League Baseball, the lack of foreign-born competitors, the limited number of teams to compete against, and that they played at home for many of their titles. Those are all true, and reasonable caveats.

They also have no bearing whatsoever on the original statement you made that my statement countered. You did not state that the Blue Devils were the most successful group in a fully integrated activity, or that they were the most successful group at winning titles away from home, or that they were the most successful group at winning against a large array of competitors. You simply stated that "no sports team, College or Pro, has won anything remotely close to 18 Titles in this similar 1976-2018  time frame. Its completely unheard of." And that's been proven false.

Now, if you want to modify your original statement with those caveats, feel free. But the initial statement you made that started this whole things simply isn't true, and was easy to identify a counterfactual in thirty seconds of using a search engine. Adding in extra caveats ex post facto doesn't make your original statement true.

And with that, I'll move on back to doing my actual work. But this was a mildly amusing diversion, and we should do it again sometime.

[BRASSO]

42 minutes ago, ftwdrummer said:

If you don't call your tendency to adopt the most high-and-mighty phrasing possible (sacred duties, etc.) when posting here "grandstanding," I would love to know what your definiti9on of it would be.  I must admit, I got about a sentence into your post and figured that you were in full irrelevant-information-grandstanding mode, so moved on.

But since you want to discuss merits, let's discuss merits.

You said:

And that's factually untrue. At least one sports team has won anything remotely close to 18 titles in a similar timeframe.

Now, if you wanted to discuss that they did theirs before 1976-2018, that would be a reasonable critique, as you did say "Since 1976."

Instead, you went into a multi-paragraph diatribe about how that didn't count because of (the reprehensible) segregation in Major League Baseball, the lack of foreign-born competitors, the limited number of teams to compete against, and that they played at home for many of their titles. Those are all true, and reasonable caveats.

They also have no bearing whatsoever on the original statement you made that my statement countered. You did not state that the Blue Devils were the most successful group in a fully integrated activity, or that they were the most successful group at winning titles away from home, or that they were the most successful group at winning against a large array of competitors. You simply stated that "no sports team, College or Pro, has won anything remotely close to 18 Titles in this similar 1976-2018  time frame. Its completely unheard of." And that's been proven false.

Now, if you want to modify your original statement with those caveats, feel free. But the initial statement you made that started this whole things simply isn't true, and was easy to identify a counterfactual in thirty seconds of using a search engine. Adding in extra caveats ex post facto doesn't make your original statement true.

And with that, I'll move on back to doing my actual work. But this was a mildly amusing diversion, and we should do it again sometime.

 I did not insult you. Your follow up even insults again. So be it.  My comment above stands regarding BD having accomplished what no other sports team has since they began competing in 1976. The Yankees, as good as they have been, have had several years out of the top tiers. They have competed vs. far less teams in these 40 years (only 15 total some seasons ), and won significant numbers of those titles during the segregation years where some of the best players could not play either on the Yankees, or on teams that would have liked to competed and top the Yankees but were prohibited, not by talent, but by their color.  BD has never finished lower than 5th in any season since 1976. So I don;'t know what further to tell you on this, since you brought it up. I guess we're done on it, and my comment on BD titles/ success being unprecedented stands ( and your disagreement with it as well ). OF course we are allowed to explain in more deatail our comments. I did as well with BD's titles/success since 1976 after you brought up the NY Yankees start in " 1923 "  , However, in a spirit of requeat on the word " titles " you honen in on here:

 " Mr. Speaker, I ask for 1 miniute to extend my time, and to modify and extend my remarks for my colleague's benefit on the other aisle. I ask the Speakers pleasure  that my word " TITLES ":above be sticken from the record, and substituted with the words" PlACEMENTS  SUCCESS ". My words will now sat for the record, that " no sports team in any league anywhere on Earth had had as much placement success as have the Blue Devils have had ". Thank you Mr. Speaker, and to my colleague on the other side of the aisle to allow me to broaden the accomplishments of the Blue Devils to beyond the 1st place titles won alone, with the substitution of the words here and now to "PLACEMENTS SUCCESS ".

Edited August 16, 2018 by BRASSO

[seen-it-all]

The foolishness lies in trying to compare drum corps to any professional or intercollegiate sports to begin with. But I think it's humorous watching people try and work the numbers in their favor, no matter which side they take. 

[seen-it-all]

In more relevant comparisons, when it comes to pre-DCI drum corps championships won, I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the Cadets and Cavaliers are the two with the most, correct? Or do those "not count" either because they're from a different era? Not sure how the "rules"work in how these corps measure the size of their .....uhhh, winnings. 

[BRASSO]

4 hours ago, seen-it-all said:

The foolishness lies in trying to compare drum corps to any professional or intercollegiate sports to begin with. 

 While perhaps true, we'd be compelled then to state that DCI itself was " foolish " to compare its Drum Corps to sports and athletes by marketing itself to ESPN Sport Network in 2007-2008, utlilizing sports athletes/ Coaches, sport broadcasters on its broadcasts in the past ( ,QB Steve Young, Coach Bobby Knight, Sports Broadcaster Curt Gowdy etc ) calling itself " Marching Music Major Leagues",  hooking up a Quad player with devices at practice to have its heart rate and metabolism compared to that of other " world class athletes", and several other examples where DCI itself compared its teams and participants to Sports teams and to athletes... and  even marketed itself as such... to a Sports Network, no less.. So yes, maybe DCI was" foolish" to do this. If so, you'd not be the first to think this either.

Edited August 16, 2018 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

4 hours ago, seen-it-all said:

In more relevant comparisons, when it comes to pre-DCI drum corps championships won, I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the Cadets and Cavaliers are the two with the most, correct? Or do those "not count" either because they're from a different era? Not sure how the "rules"work in how these corps measure the size of their .....uhhh, winnings. 

 Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights Drum & Bugle Corps, Newark, N.J for many years had lots of National Titles won that were for a period of time comparable in number to some of the DCI Corps Championship National Titles numbers. But in fairness, SAC did have some years , where the'd win 2 " National Titles " in one season and could count them as such ( ie, American Legion Nationals Championship, VFW Nationals Championships ). So its a difficult comparison to make in Titles won, when its the pre DCI Years, and then onto the DCI years. What we can say without challenge is that for a couple of decades in the pre DCI years,  the Blessed Sacrament GK were a powerhouse Drum Corps. SAC only existed for 21 seasons, but can claim 9 National Championship Titles won in those 21 seasons, impressive numbers no matter how calculated, imo

Edited August 16, 2018 by BRASSO