drumcat Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 He's just noting the concern -- I'm not up in Hopkins' grill. I just believe that as an activity, it is idiotic to discuss what to do about a problem when the problem is artificially imposed. I'm also not saying that the boycorps should be integrated. I'm saying that you can't separate the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 this is completely ridiculous. first of all... last i checked drumcorps didnt collect race statistics and data, what would be the point? so lets not try to start a debate based on false statistics this guy pulled out of his ear. oh i bet they do collect this data. any non-profit knows who it serves. second of all............................................ who cares? maybe im being progressive, but when did race start to matter in drumcorps? what the hell is he getting at? personally i dont think it makes one bit of difference what race im marching next to. to even try to put on some sort of charade where you think it has something to do with the final product or demographic or overall experience borders on racism. easy, killer. it has more to do with picking up community and corporate support. as skyryder_fmm says, you won't even get past the first page of many grant applications without a showing of some diversity. also, many municipalities aren't the least bit interested in supporting racially talismanic groups. and as long as were making up statistics.... ill bet the nba is 92% black... hockey is 92% canadian or russian, and cricket is 92% indian or english. what do those statistics mean?.... absolutely nothing. ofcourse the race demographic deosnt balance with that of the world.... its the world, idiot, people are not all the same, and not everyone has the same dislikes and likes. to think that DCI or any sport or activity would somehow have a population that is a clear even ratio(or even CLOSE!) to the actual race and culture of any town/city/county/state/country or world even is almost moronic. you tell him! except the nba, nhl, and international cricket are not non-profit organizations. they are selling entertainment for the purpose of selling entertainment. they can hire whomever they think will provide the greatest entertainment. 501©(3) organizations are entertaining people, but their primary function is to provide a certain educational or charitable function for the good of the taxpayers. Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, [...] no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 OK, but then any corps that fails to achieve the politically-correct quota of diversity would only be denying themselves potential grants. Two all-male corps don't ruin the grant applications of the other 40+ co-ed corps....nor do they skew the gender balance of the entire DCI membership pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getintoyourcolor Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 My experience in life is that anyone who truly wants to do something will find a way to do it. There are countless stories of folks overcoming any barrier to get what they want. Drum Corps costs money. In some cases, a lot of money. However, I'm willing to wager that each and every corps has members each and every year that did whatever it took to march. Its all about "the want".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 OK, wait a second... why don't we require that we not discriminate against women first. Wouldn't that be the first, simple step? Last I checked, women were actively discouraged from trying out at Madison and Cavies.If you want to talk about protected classes in an audition setting, let's first work on removing the self-imposed barriers before talking about anything league-wide. Pot. Kettle. Black. Women are encouraged to try out for all but two corps that have a historic gender specificity. Remove that and you might as well remove the corps themselves, as they would no longer be what they have always been dedicated to being. It's an interesting argument to hear when one considers all the arguments to keep certain elements more traditional. I wonder if either of the all-male corps would cease being what they are or even just plain cease being if they were somehow forced to change what they've always been. And if that happened, would we really be better off with two less or our premier corps? At the very least, it muddies the picture of racial/ethnic diversity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Women are encouraged to try out for all but two corps that have a historic gender specificity. Remove that and you might as well remove the corps themselves, as they would no longer be what they have always been dedicated to being. It's an interesting argument to hear when one considers all the arguments to keep certain elements more traditional. I wonder if either of the all-male corps would cease being what they are or even just plain cease being if they were somehow forced to change what they've always been. And if that happened, would we really be better off with two less or our premier corps? At the very least, it muddies the picture of racial/ethnic diversity. ...'cause "drum corps is what it becomes"* *except for the whole gender thing. Forget adding valves, grounding the pit, amps, electronics and ting-toozlers...now they've went too far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekneek Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Like everything else in drum corps today, tradition is unimportant and is simply holding us back from greater success. Do away with the gender bias. Cavaliers and Scouts will be so much better once they forget silly things like tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 are you replying to me? i didn't write anything about the male corps. i don't have any problem with them staying all male. i think its actually kind of cool. OK, but then any corps that fails to achieve the politically-correct quota of diversity would only be denying themselves potential grants. Two all-male corps don't ruin the grant applications of the other 40+ co-ed corps....nor do they skew the gender balance of the entire DCI membership pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senagod Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I have to agree that the music education or lack thereof in inner-city schools has a great deal to do with why we see a lack of diversity in drum corps. I worked at a public magnet school in Philadelphia that takes kids from grades 5-12 (Masterman). They have an orchestra that does a few concerts and plays for the school musical. That's about it, and it's more than most Philly schools have. A few Philly schools have jazz bands. There's a great program at one of the middle schools that has a competing guard and dance team. They've partnered with a community group that puts out a junior percussion line and a novice dance team. But once those kids are out of middle school, they have nowhere to go. There are next to no competitive high school programs in the city. The only school that I can think of that has a marching band is a Catholic school. Another Catholic school has an indoor drumline. Drum corps would be a great thing to take the place of what inner-city kids should be getting in the schools. When Masterman, the number one ranked public high school in the state and 53rd in the nation, doesn't have enough books for all of the kids and the building is falling apart, you know that what little money is available is going to go for things other than music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 READ THIS FIRST: I'm not suggesting the boycorps go co-ed. They can do what they want, however: OK, but then any corps that fails to achieve the politically-correct quota of diversity would only be denying themselves potential grants. Two all-male corps don't ruin the grant applications of the other 40+ co-ed corps....nor do they skew the gender balance of the entire DCI membership pool. Two points: 1] Not "politically correct". They can potentially be a blocking factor for DCI grants. It's at least possible. 2] So if The Cavaliers added 30 women, 30 fewer women would get spots around WC? You sure? Women are encouraged to try out for all but two corps that have a historic gender specificity. Remove that and you might as well remove the corps themselves, as they would no longer be what they have always been dedicated to being. It's an interesting argument to hear when one considers all the arguments to keep certain elements more traditional. I wonder if either of the all-male corps would cease being what they are or even just plain cease being if they were somehow forced to change what they've always been. And if that happened, would we really be better off with two less or our premier corps? At the very least, it muddies the picture of racial/ethnic diversity. I'm sorry, Mike. That's entirely chauvinistic. Be that as it may, it's the choice of those organizations. What incensed me is that somehow you manage to turn this into an issue about "tradition", implying instrumentation. Unreal. Bawker nailed your hypocrisy. You've just said here that if two corps started to allow people with vaginas a tryout, they'd disappear. The original post was about the fact that Hopkins noted that drum corps isn't terribly diverse. He's correct, and actually should be credited for having the balls to have his corps have a prominent interracial kiss on the field in Texas, in 1991 (I think). He's noting what he sees, and it could be considered an issue. It brings up a lot of issues, but the issue of protected-class participants cannot be addressed without first pointing out the prominent differences within the activity. Did you realize that in the 21st century, females have been in the winner's circle only 3 of 7 times? And you have the guts to twist this issue into an instrumentation debate? For the record, I'm not standing up for "tradition". I'm standing up for drum corps having people play instruments that don't require battery backup. I'm standing up for drum corps members being responsible for their quality of sound. That's not tradition. That's identity. You're standing up for a fraternal tradition. That's fine. The truth is that it's a "tradition" is really defined by being something that is the way you like things, and no more. It defies me that you would suggest that The Cavaliers or Madison Scouts would somehow be shutting their doors before allowing women. What if it were a discussion about whether The Cavaliers were going to accept african-americans? Would your "traditions" change? Or is the corps not the same if it's "all-white"? As someone who is hispanic, it's a good thing that the people that allowed me to march were only interested with my talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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