Cymbal Lines

[cymbal_steve]

See for yourself

I'd love to hear the reason behind this grip and the basic thoughts of the technique. I feel like that's the one group who's technique I truely don't understand.

[jbjb85]

I don't know why you'd want to hear what I have to say, I'm just some guy who used to teach, but here's what I've got.

Exactly. You're a guy who used to teach. I like to actually read educated opinions on the validity of cymbal lines rather than reading, "I don't like cymbal lines. They're archaic. They just are, because my band doesn't have one." I think it's very worthwhile to read your opinion on the matter.

[jbjb85]

That said, I pretty much agree with what you have to say. There are some pretty bad cymbal lines out there. And there are probably not as many teachers as there ideally could be.

But I think we can chalk up the disappearance of cymbal lines more to misunderstanding than we can to poor quality. I'll say that again--a lack of understanding. But whose fault is that, really? Like you said, caption heads don't always take the time. But on the flipside of that, I'm not sure that cymbal enthusiasts always make the effort to reach out and MAKE SURE that the instrument is understood. I really feel like there are cymbal players who work under the impression that they are the ######## children--condemned to a career as the unloved section. They accept poor writing and inadequate supplies. They accept that role. And that is just not okay. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you act like an underappreciated section, then so you will be. When really, it is up to cymbal players themselves to be the best, work the hardest, and reach out to those who don't fully grasp what they're doing. I think this is lacking in the activity right now, and I think the only way cymbal lines will thrive is if it changes. In case you weren't paying attention, that is up to the cymbal players, and no one else.

As for the recent reappearance (thank God) of Madison and Spirit, I think it is mostly nostalgia coupled with the recognition that they are no more or less necessary than the very activity of drum corps itself. I think that is an important realization, because to call any facet of drum corps unnecessary is to pretty much call into question just WHAT part of the activity IS necessary, when we get right down to it. Precisely none of it, that's how much. And yet we like it and do it and support it anyway. So with cymbals.

And as for this whole silly question of who is the best and second-best and what have you, who honestly cares? In my opinion, comparing SCV and Academy and Colts and Crossmen and whoever else is about as worthwhile as comparing BOA to DCI. They are different. None of them wrong, just different. And while yes, you might enjoy one particular style more than another, that doesn't mean it is more valid or well-accepted or anything else. One thing we can all agree on is that most (I don't think all) drum corps that still have cymbal lines put out a good product and that more cymbal lines would be a good thing. And yes Vanguard is very popular with the masses. That's also a good thing, in my opinion. No matter how you dice it, they are a CYMBAL LINE that is getting hyped. Imagine the climate for cymbal lines right now if there weren't a Vanguard. Is it maddening? Sure. Because deep down we all know that every cymbal line works just as hard as Vanguard does, and gets just as good. We're all fully capable of executing a Vanguard "V" or doing the Viper, but it is considered theft when we do so. When Vanguard does it, they get cheers. Why? Were they the first ones to do these visuals? I very seriously doubt it, and unless it can be proven (I doubt it can) then I'll continue to doubt it. The one thing that really shakes me is when someone refutes the idea that Vanguard is the end all be all and then someone else jumps on the defensive. That's a problem. Because then it leads to the idea that Vanguard's style is the definitive style of playing. That concept is only going to hamper our future, because it places very strict restrictions on innovation. Vanguard's "West Coast" style itself is an innovative style. It's not coincidence that most groups use "East Coast"...that's what was widely accepted, and still continues to be widely accepted. Same thing with the Garfield Grip, it was an innovation when it came about. That doesn't make it any more or less valid than the pistol grip. It's like saying every single colorguard should wear gloves, or every snare line should play with a specified drumstick, or every hornline should play King brass.

You cannot convince me that the players at Vanguard are BETTER at cymbals than someone who plays cymbals for another team. And yes, Robert Chavira has been teaching there for a very long time. That's great. That's exactly why they are as good as they are. Retention plays a huge role. But that doesn't make them better. And you can't sit there and tell me that his contribution to the activity is greater than say, Diaz Clark's, or Eddie Capps's, or our very own Steve Regener's. His contribution is DIFFERENT in that he builds one program. Whether you think it is better or worse to build one program or try to reach out and build several programs is completely up for debate. Diaz Clark taught at Suncoast, Magic, Southwind, Colts, and Bluecoats. By those measurements couldn't it be argued that he beats Chavira five to one? Not to mention he has taught Oddysey Percussion Theatre, Lassiter High School, and he currently teaches RhythmX and Kennesaw Mountain High School. I would really venture to say his contribution far outweighs the Jackal's. I would even venture to say that through his wide contact with various teaching and writing styles, he is better equipped to put together a cymbal line from the ground up.

Just my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em as you so choose.

And also, I love cymbals.

[Cuban]

The same way you cant be convinced any particular one is "the best," you cannot convince me that they are not, and have not been the cleanest year to year. And no matter what you say, this activity is about cleanliness. Its competitive, and its judged on who has each member looking as close to identical as possible. They have a uniformity of technique, sound, and that extra element of an aura about them. Now Im not going to say that CERTAIN players of other groups don't have that, but not many other lines have every last person on that same page.

Southwind had a few the last summer, Music City Mystique has a few each year, Spirit had it in 2004, Some magic members in 05, etc. All cool, but missing that undeniable element from EVERY LAST PLAYER.

And rut-roh, Id love to know what lines you found to be "better" and what years. And Id like to hope it's not based all on I&E.

You also can't convince me that any other cymbal line thus far works harder than the SCV cats. They move in months before anyone else and rehearse as much as possible during those weeks. Im pretty positive no one else does the same. This always gets argued amongst cymbal players, I guess it can't be helped, I just do believe that SCV is on another level when it comes to what they do. (Im not saying they are the only right way of doing things...) Many groups have come close, but ended up changing techs, or disappearing before really reaching that level.

Im not trying to get into a huge argument over it, but I hate to see people with statements such as "Ive seen better." Without some sort of opinions on whom they saw was cleaner.

They aren't hyped because of gimmicks. They're hyped because when the audience watches what they're doing, its clean, uncomplicated, and performed intensely.

And I certainly hope you aren't catagorizing me as someone who just sits and watches. I've marched great lines, I've marched bad ones, and I've taught great lines. I look at the cymbal line extremely fairly. Im not just a fanboy.

I just don't subscribe to this "everyone works just as hard!" when in life, some people work harder, or are pushed harder. MANY work hard, but just not quite as much as others. Just because a cymbal line Isn't hyped, doesn't mean they are worth less, but the ones that are hyped, usually have people, alumni, kids, etc. supporting them by getting the word out, and getting videos out to the public. I DO subscribe to the philosophy that if a GREAT cymbal tech (Diaz, Eddie, Robert, Gomez) can stick it out with a program for many years, there is a better chance that the success can build upon itself. Eddie and Robert are testaments to that (minus the fact that the cymbal program got screwed at spirit after 2004 which was out of the tech's control).

Diaz on the other hand, I'm pretty sure didn't have a huge choice in his having to corps hop. He had some great lines at random places yes, but things would be much different if he had the chance to stick around a solid corps for multiple years. I really do attribute a lot of the loss of cymbal lines to the fact that there are very few qualified teachers for it, and the handful of truly qualified ones are sick and tired of dealing with caption heads that don't respect the instrument or the people that each it.

SCV gets a lot of attention. Yes, much of it it has a lot to do with the fact that people record them, post them on their website of choice, and spread the word of mouth. It also helps that they haven't had any real off years in a LONG time. And their corps has managed to not have to go inactive thus far. But a lot of it has to do with their actions. They set the example for a corps that has remained one of the best almost since the activity has been around. That is not an easy task.

Im not going to lie, I really feel like its not that hard to achieve that level, but it takes administration to hire the right person, and not threaten to take the section away just because it takes a bit to

Edited May 16, 2008 by Cuban

[GGarrett]

This was a kick ### cymbal line... 1982. Your life was ruined if you got on these guys bad side...

[Charlie "Boom Boom"]

Raiders are fielding a cymbal line this year :)

[patblamo]

Will they be doing the old school madison pistol grip and technique?

Madisonic #6 is up on the Fan Network and it's FREE! It is a salute to the great Scouts cymbal lines of the past and an introduction of the 2008 line. They mention the pistol grip.

[PeeWee]

The Santa Clara Vanguard cymbal line is awesome to WATCH!!! The visuals are out of sight! Geez! They are so frickin' intense!

When the corps is performing a standstill, ALL eyes are on the cymbals (because the colorguard doesn't perform)

[Gentleman Marcher]

Madisonic #6 is up on the Fan Network and it's FREE! It is a salute to the great Scouts cymbal lines of the past and an introduction of the 2008 line. They mention the pistol grip.

Great video, but I couldn't make out that bit about "resurrecting" someone. What was the deal there? Did it have to do with the picture at the end of the video? Is there a story there?

[cantgetenoughcorps]

Sounds great that some corps are bringing back a cymbal line with addition of 15 extra members. Good call DCI.