Blue Knights design and approach

[TexasPRfan]

For what it's worth, it seems to me the complexity of what BK tries to do always make them struggle disproporitionately in the early season, and come on strong in August.

This corps is a classic example of how the artistic side of this activity is both subjective and very much alive. I have absolutely loved their 06 and 07 shows, and liked 04 and 05 quite a bit, too. To me, the music books from 06 and 07 were dark, emotional, intense and some of my favorites each season. I look forward to more of the same from BK. I hope the never change. Along with Phantom, SCV & Crown, they are one of my favorite corps now.

Harvey

[Laurakemb]

From this, I need to ask what happened exactly after 2000 (BESIDES show choice/design choice) that lead to the drop out of finals?

As a member of BK in both 2000 and 2001, I have to say that our drop from finals was almost entirely show design. We scrapped the entire drum break after the first couple shows. It was also a COMPLETE departure from what BK had ever done before. It was kinda like...... "Look at us, we're entertaining, we're not boring, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!". Doesn't work. The members in 2001 were some of the most talented people I've had the pleasure to perform with. I actually had a lot of fun that summer, and learned a lot.

I also have to say that the past few years of shows for BK have been somewhat of a disappointment for me. There needs to be more of an attempt at audience connection. As a member, there's nothing better than performing and knowing that the audience totally digs everything you're doing. That being said, I certainly don't want BK to lose their identity. It's a thin line to walk.

I was one of the members that "jumped ship". After 2002, I knew that I needed to find another home, but the ONLY reason for that was the pit instructor. He was coming back for the 2003 season, and I knew that I didn't want to ageout having a miserable summer with an instructor that I just didn't connect with in any way. There are, to this day, BK people that hold a grudge against me for leaving. I've made my peace, and I made the best decision for myself. I still love my BK family, and I always will.

Go BK!

[ouooga]

Just my quick $.02....

....BK's unique for their visual design. They focus significantly more on the individual performer rather than the big picture and have been doing this more and more since Robbie got there in 96 (it was 96, right?). That's why I feel they're going to majorly jump up when the field judges get in there.

But what really makes BK the "out there" corps, to me, and is one of the reasons I love my Denver corps, is that they approach everything with a mentality focused on excellence, which makes their entire program take a completely different approach to drum corps than ever other corps. Most corps spend their times getting everyone uniform in every way on the technical side of it. On visual segments they are all told to raise their arm at straight up or to bend your knees until you are in a sitting position or something like that. BK, on the other hand, doesn't say straight up or bend your knees until this point. They say "bring your arm as high as you can go" or "bend your knees to as low as you can go." Since people are just naturally different, you get significantly more variations from a visual side, but by stressing the individual performer you get this amazing uniformity within the effort and excellence portion, and if that's your goal then you get just as much credit for uniformity because your uniformity was in the emotion and not the actual visual itself.

That's how BK approaches everything. They treat everything as an exercise in expressing and developing emotion rather than a literal uniformity. So when a passive drum corps fan watches a BK show, they generally just hear music they don't really connect with and see visuals that just aren't the same as that other corps. But when you break down a BK show and pay more attention on the individual level, so much of the emotion that comes with 3 months of being a Blue Knight is apparent in their performance.

So I guess the bottom line is that BK strives to achieve is an emotional connection to present their visual and musical package, where as other corps (generally speaking) strive to achieve excellence in their visual and musical package to express emotion.

EDIT: This is just how I've always perceived BK, from my first time seeing them live in Arizona to my last camp with them in 06, and still to this day. My views are mine and mine alone.

Also, MFBK all the way!

Edited June 24, 2008 by ouooga

[kndl2vb]

So as to redirect the Mankato Mojito thread back to that particular show and focus on some of the thing brought up specifically about BK, I thought I would open this thread up

I should clarify that I do not believe the corps think that the "Audience is not important". The approach has however changed from the "it's all about the journey and not at all about winning or placing" of the Zingali days, to a presupposition that the community doesn't get them and an us against them approach being written into the product. You are very correct that many many people love some of the shows over the last 10 years or so, I am not disputing that. I am talking about an internalized mindset that I can recognize is still there and I feel is insular and unhealthy.

As for being someone who "automatically jumps to conclusions about a corps you know nothing about", here is a little about me. I started marching with the Blue Knights before the corps made it back into DCI member status in 1987. The Troopers were the go-to corps for that area and the only corpswe could have any kind of sense or superiority was Rocky Mountain Magic, and that wasn't by a whole lot. I remember Zingali's first "end of the season" closer redesign session in West Virginia in '88, as well as all the homophobes in the corps complaining about having to do anything besides purely marching (thank goodness those days are gone). I was there in 1990 rebuilding the equipment truck with jut myself, Steve Yates, and 2 other snare drummers as well as standing outside in the parking lot in uniform waiting for our score to be announced at Semis (more on that later). I was there teaching in 1993 watching all the "big name" designers put there 20 cents into the Star Trek show as well as watching alot of them divest themselves of even having 2 cents to do with it later on. I remember having to bargain with the frisbee football association and their tournament that took over the fields on Finals day in 1994 for just space enough for one field for the day. I have a lot longer list of milestones that I was a part of, but I will stop here because I am afriad of giving the impression the corps owes me anything. I love the fact that the corps has evolved and moved on. Also, I know to suggest that the corps doesn't want to place well is a fallacy.

As for "I Go On", let's just say that the hagiology of that moment has taken on a life of it's own. We learned that song WELL in advance of finals as an obvious attempt to build on corps identity. Honestly though, what else was the staff going to pick? Corps songs in 7/8 and 5/8-2/4 don't really bring it like "Never Walk". Zingali had already done the emotional journey of the Bernstein's Mass show with Garfield, and as such based our show on both the soundtrack from Kenneth Branagh's Henry V - small band of fighters against overwhelming odds (and hey, what we didn't know was that we got to share that whole thing with Star of Indiana), as well as a song from some obscure broadway show of the time that was about kids not losing being just kids (at least that one was exclusive to us). That last week was emotionally trying and the sheer number of shows that the corps in our competetive bracket were having to perform that week was rediculous. Now that I have the gift of time and distance I can go back and lok at those shows and see that, guess what, all those corps were about the same. The 11th and 12th spots could have gone to any number of corps. For all the hyping of us as a visual corps, now I can say we really couldn't march that well, and the drumline had a very musical book with a new approach to playing but hardly anything to go crazy over about execution. So as for tears for hope and the future, OF COURSE the corps was going to be better. By the way, there were not quite a small number of us that felt singing "I Go On" in 1991 felt somewhat hollow, seeing as not only were we making finals, but squarely in 9th place with a 2 point gap on either side of us. I am sure deflating the mythology of that moment isn't the best for the corps now, but I just wanted a little perspective in the public dialogue about the song and the mentality that hangs on it.

Perhaps the staff turn over in the visual staff since Robbie came back to the corps is low, but I would hardly call the rest of the staff exactly stable. You use phrases like the corps having "courage and heart" and "Perhaps we are always the underdog". I have to disagree that the corps is always the underdog. '92, '94, '99, '00, '06 anyone? I would posit that the words courage and heart are only used for groups that fall short of competetive goals (please notice I am NOT talking about the other stuff a corps goes through, at whtever level they are). No one is saying "gosh the Blue Devils kept pushing through last season with all those rookies. They sure had a lot of courage heart". Listening to all the kids in '99 ##### ing about getting screwed when they came in 5th before ONLY coming in 7th at finals (tying the corps record at the time) really broke my heart, but that is just me, and I of course am clearly on the outside of the corps anymore. I mention all of this because I remember the blacklisting of people who weren't happy about marching in the corps or wanting to move on to differen't challenges with another corps. I remember because I was a part of it. I also remember our hype whenever someone would come to us from other corps was that we were a family. We were MORE of a family than those big name corps that you would only be one piece of a machine in. Plus, some of those other corps were just crazy and cult-like such and the Freelancers and Boston. Guess what I saw when I got out and away from BK. The bigger corps I teach at? Family. The Division II corps I have worked with on and off? Family. Those weirdos that were in Freelancers that I am friends with now? Family. Hard to see from the inside though, and I see too much of that from the kids that do leave there for other places. Long way to go for those last few sentences I know, and I apologize. I appreciate every opportunity the corps has lead me to in my life, and I do want them to experience every success possible but I can see the forest from the trees. I do understand none of this is probably going to change any of your minds, I just felt the need to set a tiny bit of the record straight. Now upon hitting the "preview post" button I see how long this unfocused monster of a post is and I apologize again! Please feel to correct any misconceptions I have and I will try to stay as open minded as possible.

Edited June 24, 2008 by MikeN

[kndl2vb]

MY THREE CENTS BECAUSE TWO CENTS WASNT ENOUGH......

IMHO.......

THE BLUE KNIGHTS HAVE ALWAYS DONE "THE ONE THING MOST IMPORTANT IN DRUM CORPS"....... DARE TO BE DIFFERENT ......FROM BREAKING OUT THE MARCHING XYLOS IN 91, AND HAVING A FULL ON PERCUSSION BREAK FOR ALMOST 2 FULL MINUTES AND STUNNING UNIFORMS IN 93, THE VERY DANCER"ESQE" MARCHING STYLE.... THE BLUE KNIGHTS SHOULD BE CELEBRATED.......

LETS BE HONEST IF THEY DID WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DID SOMEONE WOULD FIND A WAY TO TALK CRAP ABOUT THAT TO......

SO TO ALLTHE FOSSILS THAT HATE CHANGE.....

STFU

BECAUSE if it was up to you we would still be at 128 with no front ensembles, with a color guard holding the american flag on the sideline, wearing polyester, playing hall of the mountain king, with marching tympani.......

when you design a show you design for your performers first......

MAGNA KUDOS BLUE KNIGHTS

~K~

PS IM NOT A BLUE KNIGHTS FAN... BUT I AM A FAN OF ANYONE WITH THE BALLACKS TO BE DIFFERENT AND TO GO FOR IT.....

I AM A DIE HARD CAROLINA CROWN FAN...... SINCE 1990 THE MUSIC MAN......THROUGH A Southwestern Impression in 1994......through BOHEMIA in 2004.....until now.......

ANYBODY THAT MARCHES DESERVES THE RESPECT OF US ALL NOT THE CRITIZING NATURE OF SOME BITTER NEVER HAD THE BALLS TO MARCH INDIVIUALS THAT SIT BEHIND THERE COMPUTER ALL NIGHT....

HOLLA IF YOU HEAR ME

SO IF YOU ARE A DRUM CORPS FAN.... BE A DRUM CORPS FAN.... GO TO TE SHOW ENJOY CLAP, SCREAM AND RESPECT THE ART AND THE ARTIST......

SORRY I HAD TO VENT.....

K-OUT

[traveller30]

MY THREE CENTS BECAUSE TWO CENTS WASNT ENOUGH......

IMHO.......

THE BLUE KNIGHTS HAVE ALWAYS DONE "THE ONE THING MOST IMPORTANT IN DRUM CORPS"....... DARE TO BE DIFFERENT ......FROM BREAKING OUT THE MARCHING XYLOS IN 91, AND HAVING A FULL ON PERCUSSION BREAK FOR ALMOST 2 FULL MINUTES AND STUNNING UNIFORMS IN 93, THE VERY DANCER"ESQE" MARCHING STYLE.... THE BLUE KNIGHTS SHOULD BE CELEBRATED.......

LETS BE HONEST IF THEY DID WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DID SOMEONE WOULD FIND A WAY TO TALK CRAP ABOUT THAT TO......

SO TO ALLTHE FOSSILS THAT HATE CHANGE.....

STFU

BECAUSE if it was up to you we would still be at 128 with no front ensembles, with a color guard holding the american flag on the sideline, wearing polyester, playing hall of the mountain king, with marching tympani.......

when you design a show you design for your performers first......

MAGNA KUDOS BLUE KNIGHTS

~K~

PS IM NOT A BLUE KNIGHTS FAN... BUT I AM A FAN OF ANYONE WITH THE BALLACKS TO BE DIFFERENT AND TO GO FOR IT.....

I AM A DIE HARD CAROLINA CROWN FAN...... SINCE 1990 THE MUSIC MAN......THROUGH A Southwestern Impression in 1994......through BOHEMIA in 2004.....until now.......

ANYBODY THAT MARCHES DESERVES THE RESPECT OF US ALL NOT THE CRITIZING NATURE OF SOME BITTER NEVER HAD THE BALLS TO MARCH INDIVIUALS THAT SIT BEHIND THERE COMPUTER ALL NIGHT....

HOLLA IF YOU HEAR ME

SO IF YOU ARE A DRUM CORPS FAN.... BE A DRUM CORPS FAN.... GO TO TE SHOW ENJOY CLAP, SCREAM AND RESPECT THE ART AND THE ARTIST......

SORRY I HAD TO VENT.....

K-OUT

I thought we were having a somewhat civil discussion and trying to be revelatory to where BK is at now in their growth curve. Did I miss something? Are you referring to me? Help please.

[Design Hound]

In terms of the show design, I'm going to repost what I said in the Mankato thread... it's the best way I know how to articulate my feeling on the matter...

Why does another recent member and a current corps mother seem to state otherwise....

[Keith Laubhan]

Completely agreed with you that this is where those other corps are as well, but once I say that it starts to beg the question of why BK has already been close to the ceiling and fallen away, and I am still wanting to try to get from you what the outside forces are that would affect the corps in a positive direction.

I think the use of the term "elite" is a bit of a MacGuffin/red herring. I am still trying to figure out why the 4th place- 6th place is such a volatile competitive area, but I consider the level of execution of some of those corps, depending on the year, is still at an relatively high level. Maybe not enough to cross over into the top 4 or top 3, but still at high enough level (I will reference this last season (2007) as such. From this, I need to ask what happened exactly after 2000 (BESIDES show choice/design choice) that lead to the drop out of finals?

Passion in drum corps should almost never be questioned, it's a given 99% of the time probably. The skills to pull off whatever the mission statement of the group is, by whoever those individuals are that you are talking about Keith, is what I would question. However, that is speaking of the internal issues I am still trying to not talk about yet.

Thanks for indulging me on this everybody. The BK site is deader than a corpse right now except for that poor "AmysMom" still putting up the good fight all by herself in the forums.

In terms of outside issues, a lot of it comes down to money. I hate to make that sound like an excuse, but it's a big part of why a lot of these middle tier corps can't sustain themselves at the highest level.

I understand that funds aren't a total cure-all (corps administration has to invest it well), but when you look at the only corps in recent memory to come out of the back half of finals to the top 3/4 and stay there for an extended period of time, it's Star. Not to discount their accomplishments in the least, but I don't believe that corps would have ever been able to achieve what they did without the money that they had and the business savvy to keep it perpetuating.

With funds, corps administration has the resources to hire the best instructional/design talent, which gets the most out of the membership and puts them in the best position to achieve their goals, which raises their positive visibility, which attracts supporters and prospective members, which bolsters fundraising and recruiting, which allows the organization to keep the best instructional/design talent, which gets the most of of the membership.... etc., etc.

That cycle is obviously a simplification of the whole process, but it's certainly an accurate generalization of how corps maintain success and the ability to offer a great product.

But maybe the most valuable thing that increased funding offers is the ability for a corps director to spend his or her time and effort into improving the experience and the product, instead of scrambling to find the next tank of gas, or securing the next affordable rehearsal facility, or trying to determine how to come up with the cash to upgrade instruments, or all of the other little things that require money that makes the activity go 'round.

I know even the "big boys" aren't rolling in vaults of cash, but when your income exceeds the amount required for the most basic of expenses, it give organizations the flexibility to invest in improvement as opposed to furiously maintaining where they're at.

As for dropping out of finals in 2001, the root of the problem was certainly the show design. After that season, a lot of talented kids went elsewhere. In 2002, I think there was an initiative to right the ship by "returning to the formula." Problem was, the corps didn't have the talent to make it happen. For 2003, I think the corps realized that simplifying a touch and bringing in good, young kids that bought into the program was the right way to get back on track, and that core of members hung in there till they aged out last year.

I think the 2001 season set the corps back several years, competitively, and really derailed a lot of momentum. When the competitive side of things and the business side of things are so closely linked, I believe it negatively affected the organization as a whole, too.

All of that said, could Blue Knights make things easier on themselves, in some respects? Probably, but the culture of the corps is so entrenched in remaining true to their ambitious artistic vision... it's going to be a longer process to make it happen.

[MnM]

I think all of these issues from last nights thread and this one can be summed up as perspective. People's perspective dictates there goals of the activity, their likes and dislikes in the activity, and the entertainment value of the activity. Their perspective is formed by how they were introduced to the activity and who trained them. It seams like these forums are places for people to prove to everyone else that their perspective is the only perspective or the best perspective on the activity. Far be it from me to belittle someone else because they don't enjoy my corps or X corps. I would hope that they would try to understand what X corps is trying to put on the field and maybe gain some kind of golden nugget not seen before.

[Keith Laubhan]

Why does another recent member and a current corps mother seem to state otherwise....

To what issue, specifically?