How drum corps has become marching band without you even knowing it&#3

[silvertrombone]

I disagree with this. Take the members of 1978 SCV and give them the 2008 equipment, show, and staff, and they could probably pull it off.

Well, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But to refute my entire diatribe you pull only one corps out of all the years and state you think they'd be competitive. Let's talk about 1978's top, say, 6 and compare them to today's 9-15.

Refute my statistical argument. Tell me you don't think that the national audition norm of today creates better corps by talent level. Not to mention the fact we have 40 corps total vs 200+ or so 30 years ago, whatever the crazy numbers are/were.

One corps with a maybe. That all you got? I'll take 08 Vanguard over 78 Vanguard and I haven't even seen the corps yet...based strictly off of statistics and such. To say that a bunch of street kids from Rockford would out-duel 08 Regiment, or pick any other corps and insert, is just absurd.

[silvertrombone]

Sorry, Tenor, didn't see your reply before my last reply. Interesting info--thanks. But you said yourself that staff back then was more or less uncertified, uneducated, etc. That was the situation, more or less, when I came into the activity in 91 as well, though it was well into the turnaround. Now my generation of FMM's has taken over the band universe. Try getting a job in Texas today! You'd probably spend 8 years with middle school 2nd band before having a chance with MS head director positions...exagerating.

But again, and this is simply stating facts that everyone on here pretty well accepts as stated norms, drum corps "back in the day" was put on locally as something for the neighborhood kids to do...wasn't run by music guys, but by AL/VFW guys...many founding big-names had NO music background. And the theater broadcast stated it best...mid-to-late 80's and early 90's was when the conservatory students started getting attracted to the activity widespread...OK, a smattering here and there in the 70's I'm sure, but what's the percentage of guys in 1975 that were music majors vs today?

The argument that 1978 competes with today in terms of sheer achievement is simply delusional...not even on the same page. Again, I can take the best 20 bands in the Dallas suburbs and take the best members from those and fill out a corps with 150 of the most talented musicians you'll find anywhere and they'll still not be as good as the top 6 and their national auditions. Same argument with 1978, 1975 or whatever. Now, maybe Mussolini's band played better...a bullet in the head of the guy next to you tends to do that.

C'mon, many of you talk stats with me here and there, and I'm certainly not a stats guru...somebody agree with me based strictly on logic. Pool of 700 national auditionees beats out 128 assembled locally everytime. Period. Shoot...take every corps below the top 7 last year and put together an all-star super corps and I'd still take Blue Devils over them. BD members have the experience edge over the 8-20 corps that you only gain by DOING IT at the level that BD does it year in year out. Local corps just simply can't compete with that model.

And believe it or not, I'm not trashing the 70's...I just get tired of the tired old argument that the 70's were somehow better than today's activity. Off-the-field, away from the corps, having the ability to call up your corps buddies from three blocks away and catching a movie or a beer, sure--I envy you guys. On the field? Please. Great shows, yes. Different level of performance and achievement entirely. Not to mention DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY. And don't forget, I'm not 25...these guys today from all I have seen blow the 90's away, too, so lump me in that category.

[BRASSO]

Sorry, Tenor, didn't see your reply before my last reply. Interesting info--thanks. But you said yourself that staff back then was more or less uncertified, uneducated, etc. That was the situation, more or less, when I came into the activity in 91 as well, though it was well into the turnaround. Now my generation of FMM's has taken over the band universe. Try getting a job in Texas today! You'd probably spend 8 years with middle school 2nd band before having a chance with MS head director positions...exagerating.

But again, and this is simply stating facts that everyone on here pretty well accepts as stated norms, drum corps "back in the day" was put on locally as something for the neighborhood kids to do...wasn't run by music guys, but by AL/VFW guys...many founding big-names had NO music background. And the theater broadcast stated it best...mid-to-late 80's and early 90's was when the conservatory students started getting attracted to the activity widespread...OK, a smattering here and there in the 70's I'm sure, but what's the percentage of guys in 1975 that were music majors vs today?

The argument that 1978 competes with today in terms of sheer achievement is simply delusional...not even on the same page. Again, I can take the best 20 bands in the Dallas suburbs and take the best members from those and fill out a corps with 150 of the most talented musicians you'll find anywhere and they'll still not be as good as the top 6 and their national auditions. Same argument with 1978, 1975 or whatever. Now, maybe Mussolini's band played better...a bullet in the head of the guy next to you tends to do that.

C'mon, many of you talk stats with me here and there, and I'm certainly not a stats guru...somebody agree with me based strictly on logic. Pool of 700 national auditionees beats out 128 assembled locally everytime. Period. Shoot...take every corps below the top 7 last year and put together an all-star super corps and I'd still take Blue Devils over them. BD members have the experience edge over the 8-20 corps that you only gain by DOING IT at the level that BD does it year in year out. Local corps just simply can't compete with that model.

And believe it or not, I'm not trashing the 70's...I just get tired of the tired old argument that the 70's were somehow better than today's activity. Off-the-field, away from the corps, having the ability to call up your corps buddies from three blocks away and catching a movie or a beer, sure--I envy you guys. On the field? Please. Great shows, yes. Different level of performance and achievement entirely. Not to mention DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY. And don't forget, I'm not 25...these guys today from all I have seen blow the 90's away, too, so lump me in that category.

Just to clarify, it's true that many of the earlier era Drum Corps were primarily for local kids, and that most Corps almost universally took into their ranks some kids who barely could read music when they came in ( some couldn't read music at all ). But many of the brass and percussion instructors ( with the top Corps anyway ) were well versed and well educated in Music and Percussion. They were not taught by" American Legion and VFW types "as your post above seems to imply. I'm sure there was some of that, as there literally were hundreds of Corps nationwide in earlier eras. But most Corps that were highly competitive at the upper echelons of the activity usually had Brass and Percussion instructors whose knowledge and training and most importantly... as TEACHERS of the craft ....were as gifted as they come......... also, most objective observers concede the point that the top Corps of today have more overall musical talent than ( say ) 70's Corps. ( I might add that if you take the top 3 brass players, top 3 percussion ,and top 3 guard of 70's from the top 6 Corps of that era, and compared those 3 in those sections with today.... with the same instrumentation ....that the 70's Corps and todays Corps would have little difference in talent. The REAL difference is in the depth. Today's Top 12 Corps simply have much greater overall musical training and talent within their ranks. ( of course, their talent pool they draw from is larger too, and these smaller in number Corps don't have to compete for that talent with upwards of 100 or so other Corps either)......... But in terms of audience appeal, that is certainly open to debate as to which era had more Corps with the ability to grab an audience, get them out of their seats for enthusiastic applause, and not because " the kids are working so hard, and blah blah etc " either, but because something they were doing on the field generated a standing O.... sometimes as early as half way through the show. How often do we see large audience standing O's halfway through the shows of today ? Just asking. Not a flame on todays Corps. Just to add some perspective, that's all.

Edited July 6, 2008 by BRASSO

[byline]

Great synopsis, Garry! That closely mirrors my recollection of the infiltration of corps into band and vice versa.

Well, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But to refute my entire diatribe you pull only one corps out of all the years and state you think they'd be competitive. Let's talk about 1978's top, say, 6 and compare them to today's 9-15.

I do get tired of these debates. We see the same thing with WGI comparisons of then vs. now.

With the exception of 1978 Bridgemen -- and only because marching was not their strong suit -- I'd be willing to bet that given the same level of instruction, Santa Clara, Phantom, Blue Devils, Madison, Spirit and 27th Lancers could all pull off the shows of today . . . and Bridgemen could probably do a decent job of many of them, especially from a musical standpoint. Fast-forward to 1980; same story. I do believe they'd all be competitive because they were trained to compete at high levels with whatever they were given. It's just that what was given to corps then is different from what it is now.

Edited July 6, 2008 by byline

[hkhongkong]

The whole "drum corps isn't marching band" argument is now more a function of pride and nostalgia rather than reality.

At best it's a fun discussion that traces its roots back to when community marching bands and drum corps were distinctly different; at worst, it's a distraction that poses a serious marketing issue toward introducing drum corps to a wider audience.

Try to explain the difference to a neophyte, and watch their eyes glaze over. Describe it is as 'marching bands on steroids," and they get it. (So often when people try to explain drum corps to newbies, they launch into tirades over how it's NOT marching band -- better to start by relating it with something they know, no?)

While drum corps is in decline, most people can relate to marching band -- which provides the widest reservoir of potential members and audience (even in states where music programs are in decline, band remains the most popular activity based on number of students who participate).

I talked to George Zingali at the Bloomington contest in 1985 when I was a senior in high school and I asked him where he got his start. "Marching band," he said.

Today, the only real difference between drum corps and marching band (excepting, of course, woodwinds), is this: Time (spent in rehearsal and on the road) and Talent.

Those aren't insignificant differentiators, but they certainly don't describe different species.

Edited July 6, 2008 by hkhongkong

[MikeD]

PS Hey, MikeD? How did I do?

Here in NJ, the corps influence was sporadic in the very early 70's. Bergenfield, (AKA "Little Garfield") was the huge exception...having had Dr Baggs as director in the 50's, then Don Angelica in the 60's. After Don went into the admin, he saw to it that the band was loaded with Cadet staff...Fred Sanford, our drum guy in 72, was made the band director at Bergenfield to give him a "day job", so to speak.

I taught my first band in the fall of 71, Glen Ridge. The director there was a former Chrome Dome who was our (Garfield's) asst brass guy in 71. He bought George Tuthill in to write his band's drum show, and as a marching member of the Cadets...attending a nearby college as a music ed major...ended up being what today would be called a tech. He hired Larry Kerchner to write the wind score...one of Larry's early forays into the band world. Garfield's marching instructor, Ray Capicelli, wrote and taught the band's drill. Pretty good staff! Larry basically transcribed Blue Rocks "American Salute" opener for the band.

Through the 70's the influx of corps folks into the band world accelerated...and vice versa. By the end of the decade there were two pretty large band circuits in the state, TOB and EMBA...both offshoots of judging associations.

[jetman1287]

Replying to a few different comments:

I agree with the original poster that they are basically the same, but I don't think the best BOA bands could beat the lowest Division I corps. The percussion is just too good, along with the brass performance. However, I think the best nationally competitive marching bands do have clear edges in show design over the past decade. It's easy to fall into the misconceptions about competitive marching bands because the scene didn't really explode until 2000. While DCI was innovating like crazy throughout the 1990s, marching bands were generally about 10 years behind.

Somewhere in the late 1990s things started to change, and by the early 2000s the high schools became as innovative as DCI. The bands are obviously not as good performing their shows because of the way the activities are structured (summer touring versus school-in-session HS kids), but marching band is way ahead of DCI in terms of creativity and show design. It is NOT all props and narration either. BOA Finals is much more interesting to watch even though they perform weaker than Division I corps.

I don't know where the 70's flamer was going with his post, but I agree...were people really that rude back in the 1970's? I've been gone from DCP for quite some time due to the stupidity of the posters you describe.