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A thread for George


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The integration of the voice into the musical show isn't working because the voiceover script has no real bearing on the movement of the whole. It doesn't need 'explaining' - it needs better thinking and better writing.

Compare their use of voice to how Bluecoats are using it this year, and the difference is clear. One group of vocal cues helps propel its show forward, the other hangs around the edges going "hey, I'm talkin' here!"

Edited by mobrien
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One thing that all of this illustrates is just how hard it is to add a layer of extensive narration to a show that works. Writing and speaking dialogue is just as hard as writing and playing brass and percussion charts and working CG equipment while moving at velocity. It's not a gimme, and needs rare talent to be carried off. The challenge of show integration gets magnified several-fold with this additional layer.

Edited by Peel Paint
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Glad to see this thread, because I'm a Cadet lover who would love to love this show, and I can't seem to, and I'm curious why. Music and voice produce seamless experiences that enhance each other on the stage, on the radio and in movies. But on the field, which a specific story line, it draws me out of the show, not into it.

I've thought about why, and I think it boils down to two things: neurology and "suspension of disbelief."

Neurology: Speech tickles different areas of the brain than music -- it focuses attention on logic centers and requires added energy as we decipher the message. The groundbreaking nature of the Cadets in the 80s was that marching and movement became more abstractly representative of the music (which also grew more challenging). In the process, it took the viewer deeper into the emotional core of the music. You could achieve an almost meditative state as you absorb the show and be taken along for the 11-minute ride.

When a spoken story line is introduced, that experience is interrupted as you instinctively focus on the words being spoken, your eyes automatically seek out the speaker, and you become almost solely aware of what is being said.

Why should that be? Music and dialogue work in the context of movies, plays and radios. But in movies, thanks to technology and editing, it's easy to sink into music/word moment because we can suspend disbelief -- we forget that these are actors, that the scenery isn't real, and be carried away with the story. On stage, it's more challenging, but thanks to lighting, orchestra, the context of the stage and (hopefully) good acting, we again suspend disbelief, forgetting that the people on stage are just actors as we let our emotions flow with the story. (Also, time is on the playwright's side -- they've got the audience captured for a couple hours.)

The football field has incredible disadvantages for staging a spoken word and musical experience that allows the viewer to suspend disbelief and go for a seamless emotional ride in 11 minutes or less.

I'm not anti-narration -- I enjoyed the Cadets show last year (I think, now in retrospect, because the "story" was completely in context of the players and the activity happening on the field).

Maybe a dramatic story can be effectively pulled off using narration on a football field in under a quarter hour. What I've seen and heard of the Cadets show so far this year, however, I'm not sure I'll see that happen this year.

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Two things I have to pick at here as it sounds like you're trying to blame DCP for some people in the stands not liking narration.

1) Willing to bet a very small percentage of fans in the stands have even heard about DCP, let alone read it.

2) Do you honestly think DCP posters opinions are swayed against narration by what they read here? IMO, I think posters are intelligent enough to make up their own mind.

Oh yeah... most threads???

PS - Personally I just didn't like narration in DC period, but saw some shows just to see if my opinion would change. My opinion didn't change but DCP (or even RAMD :tongue: ) posts had nothing to do with it.

1. Was that to convince yourself a small percentage of drum corps fans heard of or read DCP? They certainly aren't reading RAMD.

2. I have already praised the drum corps community for being educated/intelligent, so personally anything I post is not to persuade but to inform.

There are those who don't like the narration, there are those who do, and then there are those who say, its here. But you even said it yourself, I think you called in "Drum Corps".

Irving

Fan of the Arts

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This was an interesting read, although it may need to be tweaked a little for our world:

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Mad_Max'...rative_Music%3F

Rule for background music: No drums

Even though background music often contains rhythm (which you will learn about in the lesson about the "Sound of Joy", you must never use drums. This is the same frequency as the voice and creates spikes in the volume. This makes listening to the dialog harder.)

Heh.

Regardless, there's some interesting things there that lend themselves to the very thought that the narrative is to be front and center, with the music playing only a supporting role, even in a production like Cadets 2008 (yes, it's hard for me to wrap my head around this).

All the more reason to knock it out of the park with the best actors and wordsmiths you can find if this kind of show is going to continue.

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1. Was that to convince yourself a small percentage of drum corps fans heard of or read DCP? They certainly aren't reading RAMD.

2. I have already praised the drum corps community for being educated/intelligent, so personally anything I post is not to persuade but to inform.

There are those who don't like the narration, there are those who do, and then there are those who say, its here. But you even said it yourself, I think you called in "Drum Corps".

Irving

Fan of the Arts

??????????????

OK, let me just ask a simple question given your quote:

"And those viewing the show for the first time are fed with all the noise they hear about the narration from most threads on DCP instead of approaching the show with an open mind. It really is hard to try to get it when you already have a wall up."

Are you saying that people cannot watch the show with an open mind based on what they read on DCP?

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The football field has incredible disadvantages for staging a spoken word and musical experience that allows the viewer to suspend disbelief and go for a seamless emotional ride in 11 minutes or less.

...

Maybe a dramatic story can be effectively pulled off using narration on a football field in under a quarter hour. What I've seen and heard of the Cadets show so far this year, however, I'm not sure I'll see that happen this year.

Excellent post... I'd also add physical proximity (or lack thereof) to the list of obstacles in presenting this style of theatre to a drum corps audience.

I agree with the previous statements of the noticeable difference in quality between the theatrical elements and the drum corps elements... it's very jarring as a viewer. Feels like a high school play in whirlwind of top-notch entertainment.

Truth be told, I think that the Cadets designers are working with a flawed premise. I think the concept doesn't work (the radio show vehicle), the presentation doesn't work (gulf of quality between the theatre and the drum corps) and the venue doesn't work (as hkhongkong describes).

Sometimes when you have a flawed premise, you don't know until you try, and in those situations, I'll give credit to those who have the stones to try something new. Unfortunately, they haven't learned from the many high school bands who have tried this approach in the last 10-15 years and failed. It seems like in an effort to bring something new to their audience, they've fallen in the same pitfalls that other groups in our cousin activity have already fallen into.

As a spectator, I appreciate the amazing drum corps on the field, and I appreciate the attempt to do something unique, but I can't help but feel that the show as a complete package is irreversibly doomed.

Edited by Keith Laubhan
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I could argue that for many of them, a wall was already up from seeing previous Cadet shows with narration and not liking them. Several people on DCP have posted that they don't like the narration from previous shows, so why should they like it now. That's a wall the design team put up themselves, IMO. Repeatedly not putting out a good product in people's minds will keep them from believing that the next time will be any different.

The product has always been good :) its the narration the people question.

Irving

Fan of the Arts

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Sometimes when you have a flawed premise, you don't know until you try, and in those situations, I'll give credit to those who have the stones to try something new. Unfortunately, they haven't learned from the many high school bands who have tried this aproach in the last 10-15 years and failed. It seems like in an effort to bring something new to their audience, they've fallen in the same pitfalls that other groups in our cousin activity have already fallen into.

You win one internet. :tongue:

It was the expectation (at least in the .pdf I read about it that Hop wrote) that we'd see less high school interpretations and more off-the-beaten-path.

I have a feeling some of that is going to take a while to get rid of: the scattershot show concepts, the awkward verbage, and the narrative versus the musical.

So far, Bluecoats and Crown have chosen to mostly use narration as an "effect", rather than attempt to create an entire show around it (anyone remember BAC 2004? Yeesh.). If you commit to make the spoken word your centerpiece, it has to be flawless, much like the mello and tenor licks this year in the Cadets show. :tongue:

The dichotomy performance-wise is evident, but if 2009 is going to be more of the same . . .it's time for Hop to hand the scripting to someone else in order to create a cohesive whole.

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??????????????

OK, let me just ask a simple question given your quote:

"And those viewing the show for the first time are fed with all the noise they hear about the narration from most threads on DCP instead of approaching the show with an open mind. It really is hard to try to get it when you already have a wall up."

Are you saying that people cannot watch the show with an open mind based on what they read on DCP?

Example: I was at the Madison regional standing center top 50 (where you'll usually find me) and even before the Cadets came on the field a small group of fans (not cadet fans) were already saying before they heard one note or narration...."I hear they're using narration again, I'm sure I'm not going to like it. I just wish they'd stop talking" [sarcasm]. Now I didn't tap the man on the shoulder and asked him where he heard it or read it but it was quite visable that he had already put the Cadets show in a negative space. Narration dislikers really don't care who hears them because they assume everyone around them is in agreement with them or thinking the same way. Imagine our adjudicators using that same thought process.

Irving

Fan of the Arts

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