The Blue Knights Have Gone Insane

[traveller30]

As an alumni I am fairly torn on how I feel about the corps. I can not say what the corps mission statement is now-a-days, so I can not respond knowledgeably about where BK wants to go competitively. It does feel like they are on the historical "island to themselves" from a score standpoint (usually a few points on either side of them), but if they are fielding a corps capable of making finals consistently, then any complaints I may have with BK kind of fall by the wayside. Considering how the membership and staff I heard was reacting in 1999 to "falling" to 7th in finals, I hardly think they are purely about the experience regardless about the placement, but that has been 10 years and, admittedly a lot can happen in the amount of time.

Wow. I have to say that I have felt this way about the Blue Knights since first watching them (1990). I wouldn't have posted something like this as I think it's a bit too negative but since it's out there now... I have not enjoyed one single Blue Knights show (exception of 99.. yay! something positive here..) [snip]

But being "artsy" just for the sake of being "artsy" to me is stupid and elitist. Still, I wish them the best of luck in their efforts.

Quick aside here. Even though there probably is some bias in this from marching in '90, this is my favorite BK show still to date.

I do think the corps is hanging their hat too much on the heel kick, dancing, and "dark" themes to distinguish themselves from other corps. However, (and this may just be a reaction to the poor use of the word "elitist" that is currently in vogue, as well as the derogatory use of "artsy" from the good ole folk here on DCP) but I somehow think the corps isn't doing all this just for the sake of it.

Look. Talk is cheap. It`s easy to say that BK could be top 3 while giving himself an out like "if you can clean it". Plus, I would imagine that comments like these are the exception rather than the rule, otherwide they would be placing higher.

I have to take that kind of anecdote, delivered from a third person, with a grain of salt. If that was indeed said however, then it would actually have shown up in a large difference in the performance vs rep subcations, reflecting a top 3 placement in the rep number. Otherwise, it's all just lip service to placate the staff. I would be curious to who said this exactly for some perspective.

I think the organization in general is a little gunshy about artificially changing things up to be more "accessable" or "entertaining." As Wes points out, look at '95 and '01 for that. Talent wasn't an issue with either corps. Trying to be something they're not and failing to play to their strengths were.

At the end of the day, some people will really dig BK, some people won't, and the world will continue to revolve. I'd love to see Blue Knights more universally liked by the mob and ranked higher competitively, but not at the expense of striving to bring something new, refreshing, and artistic to the audience.

I have to disagree with you on the problems with '95 and '01 Keith. The fall in 1995 stems from many "behind the curtain/under the hood" issues over the previous few years, leading into a '94 season that other than the competitive placement, was honestly a disaster. That lead to a rather large staff turnover, which combined with a product which finally appeared on the field extremely late in the season, lead to a drop out of finals. Hardly an issue with trying to be something they are not.

I have to say I was most excited about 2001's show over the winter, but my take on it was that the design staff tried to program a show out of their comfort zone and not that the show itself was out of any image BK had for itself (only my opinion, take it for what it is worth). As for bringing something new and refreshing, it would be selling other corps short to say Blue Knights are alone in this.

Please don't go all ' we are so misunderstood, you're too dumb to get us real artists, martyr act - we already have one of those corps

Here is where I am going to get some flack I am sure. I do feel like the corps projects an "us versus the world" mentality in some form or another. The seeds were planted way back when in 1990 when we learned the words to "I Go On" with a few weeks to go in the season (what? you thought we just spontaneously just started singing that at semis?). As I stated back in the last major BK thread which might have been lost in the debate about the marching technique, most of the struggles the corps has gone through I can attribute to internal issues instead of "the historical inner wars waged being[sic] BK and DCI".

To the OP, I have to reflect on the recent posting on the Blue Stars thread about getting new shakos. A few alumni (loyal no doubt at all) reacted harshly to the change and feel the corps admin were throwing out a link to the Blue Stars that was simple unknowable to them. In the Madison thread there are countless alums who armchair quarterback the Scouts on every conceivable aspect to the corps as well as engage in what amounts to a pissing match over which administration was better for the corps. Both of those instances completely ignore their respective corps CURRENT state. At some point you really have to cut the cord and decide to just sit back and enjoy the corps for what it is, or not. Otherwise the only option is to take your concerns straight to Mark or Robbie, seeing that even as the dialogue here maybe open and civil, it ultimitely has no real impact on the corps (even though most on here feel empowered with an opinion). Do I personaly like the shows Blue Knights have been putting out? Not really at all, and I do agree with the OP for the most part, but that is where the designers are taking the corps like it or not, so honestly all I can say is just kind of deal with it.

What about those of us who are really enjoying what BK is currently doing? It's not fair to say they should try to appeal to the audience more. I'm part of that audience!!! Let us have our favorites without trying to mold them into something more "refreshing". Refreshing by whose standards?

Truth is there is no corps that get's away from the harsh criticism of those who want them to conform to their personal taste. Problem is, if they do change, someone else is going to come along and criticize them for not being true to their uniqueness. Trying to please all the fans is never going to work because fans think as individuals! Individuals with different likes and different dislikes…..

Here is really what it comes down to. Some in the audience do like where the corps is at, and as I can figure out for myself it might just be a 50/50 split on feelings about BK. You may have a more vested interest in what the corps performs than the fan in the stands, but this is really a debate for those in charge of BK. Word of caution though. What if the BK team DID decide to go in a different direction? Would those self same fans throw the proverbial tomatoes? Blue Devils, Bluecoats, and others have rewritten themselves recently to be able to branch out from what they had been doing previously. I hardly think it is selling out to purely gain points, and I don't think they lost any of what it was to be their respective identities. Sorry for taking up all of your time everybody....

[wesleyrp]

As an alumni I am fairly torn on how I feel about the corps. I can not say what the corps mission statement is now-a-days, so I can not respond knowledgeably about where BK wants to go competitively. It does feel like they are on the historical "island to themselves" from a score standpoint (usually a few points on either side of them), but if they are fielding a corps capable of making finals consistently, then any complaints I may have with BK kind of fall by the wayside. Considering how the membership and staff I heard was reacting in 1999 to "falling" to 7th in finals, I hardly think they are purely about the experience regardless about the placement, but that has been 10 years and, admittedly a lot can happen in the amount of time.

Quick aside here. Even though there probably is some bias in this from marching in '90, this is my favorite BK show still to date.

I do think the corps is hanging their hat too much on the heel kick, dancing, and "dark" themes to distinguish themselves from other corps. However, (and this may just be a reaction to the poor use of the word "elitist" that is currently in vogue, as well as the derogatory use of "artsy" from the good ole folk here on DCP) but I somehow think the corps isn't doing all this just for the sake of it.

I have to take that kind of anecdote, delivered from a third person, with a grain of salt. If that was indeed said however, then it would actually have shown up in a large difference in the performance vs rep subcations, reflecting a top 3 placement in the rep number. Otherwise, it's all just lip service to placate the staff. I would be curious to who said this exactly for some perspective.

I have to disagree with you on the problems with '95 and '01 Keith. The fall in 1995 stems from many "behind the curtain/under the hood" issues over the previous few years, leading into a '94 season that other than the competitive placement, was honestly a disaster. That lead to a rather large staff turnover, which combined with a product which finally appeared on the field extremely late in the season, lead to a drop out of finals. Hardly an issue with trying to be something they are not.

I have to say I was most excited about 2001's show over the winter, but my take on it was that the design staff tried to program a show out of their comfort zone and not that the show itself was out of any image BK had for itself (only my opinion, take it for what it is worth). As for bringing something new and refreshing, it would be selling other corps short to say Blue Knights are alone in this.

Here is where I am going to get some flack I am sure. I do feel like the corps projects an "us versus the world" mentality in some form or another. The seeds were planted way back when in 1990 when we learned the words to "I Go On" with a few weeks to go in the season (what? you thought we just spontaneously just started singing that at semis?). As I stated back in the last major BK thread which might have been lost in the debate about the marching technique, most of the struggles the corps has gone through I can attribute to internal issues instead of "the historical inner wars waged being[sic] BK and DCI".

To the OP, I have to reflect on the recent posting on the Blue Stars thread about getting new shakos. A few alumni (loyal no doubt at all) reacted harshly to the change and feel the corps admin were throwing out a link to the Blue Stars that was simple unknowable to them. In the Madison thread there are countless alums who armchair quarterback the Scouts on every conceivable aspect to the corps as well as engage in what amounts to a pissing match over which administration was better for the corps. Both of those instances completely ignore their respective corps CURRENT state. At some point you really have to cut the cord and decide to just sit back and enjoy the corps for what it is, or not. Otherwise the only option is to take your concerns straight to Mark or Robbie, seeing that even as the dialogue here maybe open and civil, it ultimitely has no real impact on the corps (even though most on here feel empowered with an opinion). Do I personaly like the shows Blue Knights have been putting out? Not really at all, and I do agree with the OP for the most part, but that is where the designers are taking the corps like it or not, so honestly all I can say is just kind of deal with it.

Here is really what it comes down to. Some in the audience do like where the corps is at, and as I can figure out for myself it might just be a 50/50 split on feelings about BK. You may have a more vested interest in what the corps performs than the fan in the stands, but this is really a debate for those in charge of BK. Word of caution though. What if the BK team DID decide to go in a different direction? Would those self same fans throw the proverbial tomatoes? Blue Devils, Bluecoats, and others have rewritten themselves recently to be able to branch out from what they had been doing previously. I hardly think it is selling out to purely gain points, and I don't think they lost any of what it was to be their respective identities. Sorry for taking up all of your time everybody....

Incredibly well written response! I agree that a change could cause one side or the other to throw tomatoes. I also respect that while you do not care for the product you recognize they have a product that is consistent. The one difference I take with your great comments is that I do not believe Bluecoats or BD have reinvented themselves. BD won the title last year by bringing back tunes and intertwining them a different way, and this year they are still playing music that for the most part fit their style with the same type of visual fervor we are used to seeing. Yes they do some new things but their technique is not different. Bluecoats have always put shows together with heavy jazz or rock themes that are crowd pleasers. The fact they have been a bit more thematic of late is cool, but the year they placed 4th it was straight Matheny. Just my thoughts. By the way I reiterate again that BK owes it's current success to those of you that marched in the era you did. You guys were the true Blue Knight pioneers. Well said in your post!

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

[Tuonela]

Wow. I have to say that I have felt this way about the Blue Knights since first watching them (1990). I wouldn't have posted something like this as I think it's a bit too negative but since it's out there now... I have not enjoyed one single Blue Knights show (exception of 99.. yay! something positive here..) ever since I have started watching them. I'm sorry, but they bore me to tears year after year after year. I have never understood the whole "identity" this corps has. Who wants to make "boring" their identity? To each his/her own though... I don't have a personal problem with them, I just watch their show each year, hoping I will like it, and each year I am disappointed and just bored with it. I really hope the kids do enjoy performing this show because I don't hold it against them (although they know what they are getting into, obviously.) But being "artsy" just for the sake of being "artsy" to me is stupid and elitist. Still, I wish them the best of luck in their efforts.

To you and everyone else who thinks BK needs more fan friendly shows, there are 21 other open class corps that deliver plenty of crowd pleasing moments. I think the only real argument anybody has been trying to push against the Knights here is that their shows don't appeal to the average fan. So what? Nearly every other corps does appeal to the average fan. BK's style appeals to a particular group (myself included). I really don't care for BD's or Cavies' style, and I outright dislike Crown (oh no, I don't own a flame retardant suit... I'm going to be burned alive) but that doesn't mean I want them to change. They have their fans and I respect that.

Concerning the original poster's comments, I do respect your desire to help out your corps, but it seems like you are basing "success" solely on how well the corps places. I absolutely disagree with this. '06 and '07 BK are two of my favorite shows of all time. Even if they got dead last, I would still love them. Why? Well, to put it in the words of Snoop, that's how I roll, #####es.

To sum it up, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the program. Since when was being original and uniquely expressive at the expense of mass-appeal failure?

[paultxsa]

QUOTE (ouooga @ Jul 29 2008, 08:26 PM)

BK has had a lot of rises and falls in their time, with years where they are on fire and years where they've fallen out of the light a little, and they are comparing their entire history to a rain storm.....or, more blaitently, Knight Reign is BK's Reign in drum corps, and their history is like Night Rain, a storm through the night. There's Trittico, there's movement, there's dissonance for the years where things just didn't click....and then it ends with some drill from 06 and the big hit from 06, echoing the Blue Knights' return to finals and their highest placement since they came back. The fact that the show is a rain storm is just one layer, and it's all a metaphor for the bigger picture.

i absolutely did not get that, and im sure only about 2% of BK's audiences gathered most of it when watching. i dont particularly care, since i liked the show anyway (though it's interesting to read afterwards), but the aforementioned concept wasn't conveyed (to me) at all.

You know,

I did get the comparison between the show/rain storm representing the 50 years, through sometimes turbulent times. It's one of the things I really like about the show, there is a message, left there for me in a musical metaphor...there is not anyone standing on a midfield stage trying to explain it to me as though I were a child.

Yeah...often BK is a little bit different than everyone else, but I like it.

...and no, I never marched in BK (or anywhere else), .....just a drum corps fan.

[Keith Laubhan]

I have to disagree with you on the problems with '95 and '01 Keith. The fall in 1995 stems from many "behind the curtain/under the hood" issues over the previous few years, leading into a '94 season that other than the competitive placement, was honestly a disaster. That lead to a rather large staff turnover, which combined with a product which finally appeared on the field extremely late in the season, lead to a drop out of finals. Hardly an issue with trying to be something they are not.

I have to say I was most excited about 2001's show over the winter, but my take on it was that the design staff tried to program a show out of their comfort zone and not that the show itself was out of any image BK had for itself (only my opinion, take it for what it is worth). As for bringing something new and refreshing, it would be selling other corps short to say Blue Knights are alone in this.

I'm not saying that programming in a different direction was the cause of them falling out of finals in both of these years... I'm just pointing to the psychology associated with it. In terms of the recent history of BK (let's call it 1990 on), those two shows were, I think, the most obviously different from the rest. Whether it was coincidence or not (or maybe a combination of both), I do think it's in the heads of people involved with the corps to a certain extent.

[Newseditor44]

In your opinion.... It's not at all uncommon to hear the staff talk about trying to achieve just that, in my experience.

Trying to achieve it and achieving it are two different things. If the staff had to be graded on this topic, they would get a c-, at best. The shows just haven't been engaging, and this is not just me talking, more than a few of my friends and I have had this same discussion.

The frustrating thing is that the corps has the potential, and the staff has the potential as well.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Newseditor44

[Newseditor44]

I don't think the problem is their style or identity or even the reps they choose. It's in the way they put shows together and the fact that their modernist/minimalist concept tends to look and sound very similar year after year. There are never any surprises with them and that's why people get bored. I, like others have said, usually watch them once a year just to say I've seen them.

To each his/her/their own. If they're happy with the results they get, and the members have a good experience, then good for them.

Exactly!

[Keith Laubhan]

The shows just haven't been engaging, and this is not just me talking, more than a few of my friends and I have had this same discussion.

Well, if you and your chums agree, I guess it renders all other arguments moot... :p

I'm not trying to be a douchnozzle, but I'm just trying to make the case that if even 99% of drum corps fans hated BK's productions, and 1% loved it, there would still be legitimate value to what they're doing. Obviously things aren't that drastic, but I don't think there's anything wrong, especially in an environment where variety is encouraged, about having selective appeal.

[Tuonela]

Well, if you and your chums agree, I guess it renders all other arguments moot... :p

I'm not trying to be a douchnozzle, but I'm just trying to make the case that if even 99% of drum corps fans hated BK's productions, and 1% loved it, there would still be legitimate value to what they're doing. Obviously things aren't that drastic, but I don't think there's anything wrong, especially in an environment where variety is encouraged, about having selective appeal.

More or less exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for being more literate than me.

[wesleyrp]

Well, if you and your chums agree, I guess it renders all other arguments moot... :p

I'm not trying to be a douchnozzle, but I'm just trying to make the case that if even 99% of drum corps fans hated BK's productions, and 1% loved it, there would still be legitimate value to what they're doing. Obviously things aren't that drastic, but I don't think there's anything wrong, especially in an environment where variety is encouraged, about having selective appeal.

Exactly, in teaching the biggest thing we try to convey is that if what you're doing makes an impact on one new persons life in a positive way then it is worth it. In BK 's case I think it is obvious based on the souvie sales/new fans I saw in SA that they are making an impact on many!!!

Wes Perkins