Let's talk horns

[salad315]

Your saying that it's a fact doesn't make it a fact. And furthermore, my point is not that a line wasn't louder, but that there is no property inherent in the key of G that makes it louder than other keys. Lines today aren't purely focused on volume and cleanliness, instructors now focus on overall good brass playing. The best lines can put out as much sound as anyone has--but they aren't doing it constantly. If hornlines are putting out less, it has nothing to do with the key of the horn, it has to do with the change in instructional approach that focuses on musicianship first and building up volume in an environment of good tone quality and better pedagogy.

I've got to agree - for the most part. I'm willing to admit that hornlines were louder in the 80's and 90's in general, and even that G horns helped this. Nowadays I'm lucky if there is even 1 hornline PER YEAR that really blows me away with volume. Nobody did last year, cadets did in 07, and phantom did in 06. Like others have said, its more about the approach than the horn. Personally, I have near perfect pitch, so I can tell just by what key a line is in, what key their horns are, but I'm guessing a lot of people couldn't. I'm sure there are some that could, but there is not always a clear difference. Star played their horns like they were Bb's, and Phantom sounded like they were on G's in 2006. Thats just to me though....

[drumno5]

The 8 Contra Grande bugles and the players playng them in 1979 and 1980 Spirit were Louder than any 10, 12 even 16 member Tuba line I've ever heard.

And I'll bet they're getting louder with each passing year!

Fred O.

[trptjock]

To me, it seems that the initial question of instruments has strayed from its original point. I believe the initial discussion was on what each line was playing on instrument wise as well as mouthpiece selection. Here is what I remember from the World Class Corps during the 2008 season:

(Alphabetical Order only)

Dynasty Lines:

Blue Devils (2nd)

Glassmen (11th)

Pacific Crest (17th)

Jupiter Lines:

The Academy (18th)

King Lines:

Phantom Regiment (1st)

Blue Stars (8th)

Blue Knights (9th)

Boston Crusaders (10th)

Spirit (15th)

Mandarins (19th)

Pioneer (20th)

Yamaha Lines:

Cavaliers (3rd)

Carolina Crown (4th)

The Cadets (5th)

Bluecoats (6th)

Santa Clara Vanguard (7th)

Madison Scouts (12th)

Crossmen (13th)

Colts (14th)

Troopers (16th)

*Mouthpieces, each corps uses specific mouthpiece as determined by their Brass Caption Head. Those decisions are done to help the hornline achieve the resultant sound that the caption head hears in their head when they the hornline plays. This also comes from personal experience as an educator or performer and from relationships that are forged over the years. "What do you guys use" is a question that gets asked amongst those in the activity. There are plenty of mouthpiece manufacturers out there that make quality equipment, the real choice is what do you hear in your head and what will get that on the field.

Now here are some questions (and my answers) that may help illustrate the various points in this discussion.

1. Does any one of these instruments give any corps a competitive advantage? No, because the pedagogy taught to the members dictates the overall understanding of the techniques involved in the process of making a sound while on the move. Ability level of the members in the hornline also dictate the level of success of that particular ensemble. A corps made up of college age music majors will sound different than the same age group of people that are only playing during the competitive season. (this doesn't always hold true, but is a means of providing you with the point of talent/training equals better result.)

2. What gives the corps a competitive advantage?

*Staging on the field.

If the trumpet line is playing a feature and are on the back hash of the field while the rest of the corps is on the front sideline, that is a problem.

*Technical Difficulty of the book being played while on the move.

If the book is rather easy in terms of its demand on the performer and the collective whole of the hornline executes the music at a high level, they will be rewarded for their performance. Whereas, if the book is very difficult and there are gaps in the sound or inconsistencies in the performance, that line will not be given the points they are looking for.

*Consistency of sound from player to player.

The Jim Ott trophy is given to the corps that performs their show the best (in comparison to the rest of the field of contestants) on finals night ON THE FIELD, not in the stands. In some years it was determined over three nights. This means, that while the individual members in any given hornline will perform their show the best on finals will win the trophy (under certain guidelines).

*Programming.

A shows programming from beginning to end will take the audience and judging community on a journey through their show. Using various World Champions as an example, you can see the execution of each show done to a very high level. Recently, the "Show" aspect of their performances really garners more weight than the performance itself. Some hold true to their overall theme while some stray away from it (to a point). Those whose show is very cohesive from beginning to end are usually more apt to being within the top 5 than not. Those that are further down had shows (although entertaining) did not deliver the theme as did their competitors.

*Visual demand over musical demand.

If you are running around on the field at a beat of 200+ beats per minute, you will not be able to produce the same sounds that were achieved in the 70's and 80's when the drill design was not nearly as fast paced or intricate. If the Visual demand is quite high and the musical demand is quite low, then one suffers because of another. You can not deny that. Some corps have made it an art form in terms of achieving high visual and musical demands in their designs by being leaders in the activity. SCV, Cadets, Star and Cavaliers all did some great things during the 80's and early 90's to set the drum corps idiom onto the path that we are on currently. In this day, you can't go to a drum corps show without some corps marching at 200+ bpm at some point in their production. That has an effect on the music itself.

3. What makes a hornline LOUD? The pedagogy being taught. Although design does have something to do with the instrument and its carrying power in a stadium, the means of teaching to make that sound is really where it all comes from. Some corps believe that volume is an effect and to only be used to garner that specific effect. Other corps use it as a means of pride. (We play louder than any other hornline on the field.) That may be well and good, but the overall issue is are those members being taught how to make representative sounds while maintaining a centered, focussed and resonant sound. The era of playing as loud as you can and breaking phrases to breathe and having gaps in the sound are gone. Listening closely to recordings of those "Loud Hornlines of the past", you will hear exactly what I am talking about. Memory will fade over the years. What sounded loud to you at one specific moment now will not have the same effect 20 years from now. You then begin to believe what you want to believe was done at that moment. You may have been effected by the sheer volume of it and not remember the tone qualities coming out of some of the members in the line. A contrabass can not hold a loud note as long as a soprano player can. So with the argument of 8 contrabasses playing louder than 16 tuba players may be true but at what cost? Tone Quality, Balance, blended sounds, intonation, or sheer volume.

4. B-flat vs. G. The G bugle sounds the way it does not because of the bore size of the instrument (though that does have an effect), but because as you add more tubing to an instrument (1 valve, 2 valves, 3 valves, etc.) you add more resistance to the instrument making appear less free blowing. The vertical two valve instruments of the 70's, 80's and early 90's had a very specific sound characteristic. In the right hands, the sounds were very intense and energetic. The scoring or voicing of the instruments also had something to do with the sound of the hornline. A Jim Ott line sounded different than a Wayne Downey line, than a Jim Wren line, than a Jim Prime line. Each line has a specific way they sounded by means of voicing and show design. In acoustics, higher tones will always sound louder than lower ones. Listening to a piccolo player in an orchestra is easier to hear than the tuba. With a G line, that was made clear by the fact that the B-flat line was never an issue on the field. When the B-flat line became legal in 2000, those that moved to the B-flat side were better in tune to those on the G side of things. Does that make the G line worse than the B-flat side? No, just different. If you listen to Cadets in 2005 and 2007, there were some moments of very loud intense playing. Same with those lines back in the day. Is one better than another, no - just different. So, with adding valves, which added more tubing to the instrument, thus adding more resistance made those instruments a bit more difficult to respond. So to compensate for that, those companies that built those horns adjusted the overall bore size to compensate for the added tubing and "resistance". Plus, those companies were not making money selling G bugles to high school or college bands. With B-flat instruments now, some instrument manufacturers sell instruments that are considered "large bore" sizes to get the same sound that you hear on the DCI field of competition. Some bands don't teach the way that Drum Corps do, so they don't get the same results that Drum Corps get.

5. Performance Training. This is the biggest factor to consider. If you have adult aged members (18-22 yrs old) in a hornline that have been playing brass instruments for a while, the resultant sound will be closer to the quality the caption head hears in their head when they play. The issue then becomes making that sound happen while on the move. Everyone tries to make this happen both on the move and in the arc. Those that do this the best, make it look effortless. The training is paramount to this entire discussion. Now, with the visual (marching and dance...yes some corps do some aspects of dance) and musical demands placed on the members, the training needed to be able to play at a high level is so very important. There are more injuries brought on by the visual demands placed on these members than what was asked for back in the 70's and 80's.

Sorry for the tangent. Perhaps this will add some more fodder for discussion.

RV

Edited March 10, 2009 by trptjock

[euponitone]

To me, it seems that the initial question of instruments has strayed from its original point. I believe the initial discussion was on what each line was playing on instrument wise as well as mouthpiece selection. Here is what I remember from the World Class Corps during the 2008 season:

(Alphabetical Order only)

Dynasty Lines:

Blue Devils (2nd)

Glassmen (11th)

Pacific Crest (17th)

Jupiter Lines:

The Academy (18th)

King Lines:

Phantom Regiment (1st)

Blue Stars (8th)

Blue Knights (9th)

Boston Crusaders (10th)

Spirit (15th)

Mandarins (19th)

Pioneer (20th)

Yamaha Lines:

Cavaliers (3rd)

Carolina Crown (4th)

The Cadets (5th)

Bluecoats (6th)

Santa Clara Vanguard (7th)

Madison Scouts (12th)

Crossmen (13th)

Colts (14th)

Troopers (16th)

*Mouthpieces, each corps uses specific mouthpiece as determined by their Brass Caption Head. Those decisions are done to help the hornline achieve the resultant sound that the caption head hears in their head when they the hornline plays. This also comes from personal experience as an educator or performer and from relationships that are forged over the years. "What do you guys use" is a question that gets asked amongst those in the activity. There are plenty of mouthpiece manufacturers out there that make quality equipment, the real choice is what do you hear in your head and what will get that on the field.

Now here are some questions (and my answers) that may help illustrate the various points in this discussion.

1. Does any one of these instruments give any corps a competitive advantage? No, because the pedagogy taught to the members dictates the overall understanding of the techniques involved in the process of making a sound while on the move. Ability level of the members in the hornline also dictate the level of success of that particular ensemble. A corps made up of college age music majors will sound different than the same age group of people that are only playing during the competitive season. (this doesn't always hold true, but is a means of providing you with the point of talent/training equals better result.)

2. What give the corps a competitive advantage?

*Staging on the field.

If the trumpet line is playing a feature and are on the back hash of the field while the rest of the corps is on the front sideline, that is a problem.

*Technical Difficulty of the book being played while on the move.

If the book is rather easy in terms of its demand on the performer and the collective whole of the hornline executes the music at a high level, they will be rewarded for their performance. Whereas, if the book is very difficult and there are gaps in the sound or inconsistencies in the performance, that line will not be given the points they are looking for.

*Consistency of sound from player to player.

The Jim Ott trophy is given to the corps that performs their show the best (in comparison to the rest of the field of contestants) on finals night ON THE FIELD, not in the stands. In some years it was determined over three nights. This means, that while the individual members in any given hornline will perform their show the best on finals will win the trophy (under certain guidelines).

*Programming.

A shows programming from beginning to end will take the audience and judging community on a journey through their show. Using various World Champions as an example, you can see the execution of each show done to a very high level. Recently, the "Show" aspect of their performances really garners more weight than the performance itself. Some hold true to their overall theme while some stray away from it (to a point). Those whose show is very cohesive from beginning to end are usually more apt to being within the top 5 than not. Those that are further down had shows (although entertaining) did not deliver the theme as did their competitors.

*Visual demand over musical demand.

If you are running around on the field at a beat of 200+ beats per minute, you will not be able to produce the same sounds that were achieved in the 70's and 80's when the drill design was not nearly as fast paced or intricate. If the Visual demand is quite high and the musical demand is quite low, then one suffers because of another. You can not deny that. Some corps have made it an art form in terms of achieving high visual and musical demands in their designs by being leaders in the activity. SCV, Cadets, Star and Cavaliers all did some great things during the 80's and early 90's to set the drum corps idiom onto the path that we are on currently. In this day, you can't go to a drum corps show without some corps marching at 200+ bpm at some point in their production. That has an effect on the music itself.

3. What makes a hornline LOUD? The pedagogy being taught. Although design does have something to do with the instrument and its carrying power in a stadium, the means of teaching to make that sound is really where it all comes from. Some corps believe that volume is an effect and to only be used to garner that specific effect. Other corps use it as a means of pride. (We play louder than any other hornline on the field.) That may be well and good, but the overall issue is are those members being taught how to make representative sounds while maintaining a centered, focussed and resonant sound. The era of playing as loud as you can and breaking phrases to breathe and having gaps in the sound are gone. Listening closely to recordings of those "Loud Hornlines of the past", you will hear exactly what I am talking about. Memory will fade over the years. What sounded loud to you at one specific moment now will not have the same effect 20 years from now. You then begin to believe what you want to believe was done at that moment. You may have been effected by the sheer volume of it and not remember the tone qualities coming out of some of the members in the line. A contrabass can not hold a loud note as long as a soprano player can. So with the argument of 8 contrabasses playing louder than 16 tuba players may be true but at what cost? Tone Quality, Balance, blended sounds, intonation, or sheer volume.

4. B-flat vs. G. The G bugle sounds the way it does not because of the bore size of the instrument (though that does have an effect), but because as you add more tubing to an instrument (1 valve, 2 valves, 3 valves, etc.) you add more resistance to the instrument making appear less free blowing. The vertical two valve instruments of the 70's, 80's and early 90's had a very specific sound characteristic. In the right hands, the sounds were very intense and energetic. The scoring or voicing of the instruments also had something to do with the sound of the hornline. A Jim Ott line sounded different than a Wayne Downey line, than a Jim Wren line, than a Jim Prime line. Each line has a specific way they sounded by means of voicing and show design. In acoustics, higher tones will always sound louder than lower ones. Listening to a piccolo player in an orchestra is easier to hear than the tuba. With a G line, that was made clear by the fact that the B-flat line was never an issue on the field. When the B-flat line became legal in 2000, those that moved to the B-flat side were better in tune to those on the G side of things. Does that make the G line worse than the B-flat side? No, just different. If you listen to Cadets in 2005 and 2007, there were some moments of very loud intense playing. Same with those lines back in the day. Is one better than another, no - just different. So, with adding valves, which added more tubing to the instrument, thus adding more resistance made those instruments a bit more difficult to respond. So to compensate for that, those companies that built those horns adjusted the overall bore size to compensate for the added tubing and "resistance". Plus, those companies were not making money selling G bugles to high school or college bands. With B-flat instruments now, some instrument manufacturers sell instruments that are considered "large bore" sizes to get the same sound that you hear on the DCI field of competition. Some bands don't teach the way that Drum Corps do, so they don't get the same results that Drum Corps get.

5. Performance Training. This is the biggest factor to consider. If you have adult aged members (18-22 yrs old) in a hornline that have been playing brass instruments for a while, the resultant sound will be closer to the quality the caption head hears in their head when they play. The issue then becomes making that sound happen while on the move. Everyone tries to make this happen both on the move and in the arc. Those that do this the best, make it look effortless. The training is paramount to this entire discussion. Now, with the visual (marching and dance...yes some corps do some aspects of dance) and musical demands placed on the members, the training needed to be able to play at a high level is so very important. There are more injuries brought on by the visual demands placed on these members than what was asked for back in the 70's and 80's.

Sorry for the tangent. Perhaps this will add some more fodder for discussion.

RV

Sorry, but that information is far too relevant and interesting for a DCP discussion. Please say something silly so we know you belong here.

[Puppet]

To me, it seems that the initial question of instruments has strayed from its original point. The pedagogy being taught.

B-flat vs. G. The G bugle sounds the way it does not because of the bore size of the instrument (though that does have an effect), but because as you add more tubing to an instrument (1 valve, 2 valves, 3 valves, etc.) you add more resistance to the instrument making appear less free blowing. The vertical two valve instruments of the 70's, 80's and early 90's had a very specific sound characteristic. In the right hands, the sounds were very intense and energetic.

RV

Pedagogy. Wow. for those of you not familiar (as I was at Music & Art HS back in the early sixties it goes like this (sorta): The Latin-derived word for pedagogy, education, is now used in the English-speaking world to refer to the whole context of instruction, learning, and the actual operations involved therein, although both words have roughly the same original meaning. In the English-speaking world the term pedagogy refers to the science or theory of educating.

What can I say, my son is a teacher in the NYC High School system.

Having said that, the original point is all about that. Hy Dreitzer taught us to use the natural reverberation from the back stands to increase our effectiveness when playing small passages - especially from the small horns - he wrote very intricate parts for the middle horn (French, Flugelhorns and then Mello as well as at least 2 Euphonium or Baritone parts (very orchestral like 1st and 3rd French or 1st & 2nd Trombone) The guy was a genius at splitting parts to make 8 horns sound like 16 - you'd hear one thing during a soft passage and then at forte everything would open up and this sound would erupt.

This was during the G bugle era, BTW and Hy would make it clear very often that because the small horns would cut, our role in the middle was to sustain and support. There would always be that layer of thick chord progressions so our small 40 horns could sound very big, very quickly because of the use of the inner voicing.

We could come at the front stands big and rest our chops going away - I don't think anyone gave as much thought to the "field use" as Hy BITD.

We were one of the first corps to use video as a tool during rehearsals and each of us got a chance to "see" our corps to grasp the understanding of our roles within the show.

Pedagogy.

1969 is when I first heard the word.

Of course, with Bb and 80/90 hornlines, I never thought there would be a need for such a concept - except now most marchers are pretty much pros before they ever hit the field. Not like us.

Puppet

Edited March 10, 2009 by Puppet

[Penn State]

Just curious here. Does your knowledge of the "middle" voices extend as far back as the sixty through late seventies era when names like Conn, Olds, Gretsch, Getzen, Slingerland and even Bach horns were in competition. I played both Conn & Slingerland French horn - I don't remember the Flugelhorn manufacturer (but I suspect it was an Olds because we switched over to all Olds that year) and then of course -my favorite - Mellophone. These were all single piston instruments. The French horns with slides, Flugelhorn and Mello with a rotary.

Just as I said, wondering.

Puppet

hey Puppet! Honestly, my experience playing on G 'bugles' is rather limited. The first horn I played on for a corps was a DEG Dynasty II mellophone with either a Bach 3B or 7C mouthpiece. For those who may not know this was a two piston valve, chrome plated instrument. The first mellophone I ever played was a Bach 887. Both horns blow very differently, the DEG was more like a student trumpet while the Bach was a 'freer' blowing horn. I preferd the the Bach. The Dyansty 3 valve G mellophone was miles ahead of the DEG II. That's the extent of my experience on middle brass pitched in the key of G. I have played on several different F mellophones (Bach, King, Yamaha, Dynasty, Conn, Blessing). If you have any interest in one of their models, I would be glad to talk about the horn.

I have never seen a single piston horn outside of a picture. I briefly played an old DEG piston/rotor contrabasse. Grant it was an old horn, still feel it was the worst horn I ever picked up.

[Penn State]

QUOTE (wvu80 @ Aug 10 2008, 12:36 PM)

High Brass award: 1st -Blue Devils, Dynasty

2nd Phantom, King Marching Brass

3rd Crown, Yamaha

4th Cavaliers, Yamaha (2008 horns for sale)

5th Cadets, Yamaha

6th Bluecoats Yamaha (horns now on sale)

7th SCV Yamaha

8th Blue Stars, King

Academy - Jupiter Marching Brass

+++

It is fascinating that 5 of the top 8 corps in DCI are Yamaha corps.

QUOTE (wvu80 @ Aug 10 2008, 12:36 PM)

Can you separate a discussion about horns from the corps who use them?

Yes, at least I like to think so

QUOTE (wvu80 @ Aug 10 2008, 12:36 PM)

Does a certain brand really bring a competitive advantage?

Each line is unique and offers advantages in different voices over their competition. I will discuss the instruments that I have personally played on and what I feel I have enough feedback on to comment. I will make it clear when I am speaking of my personal experience as opposed to others. References will be provided for any product opinion from other musicians when possible.

Yamaha:

-To the extent of my knowledge Yamaha is the only manufacturer that offers a professional trumpet in its marching brass line up. The company offers various options to allow the corps to choose the Xeno model that facilitates their vision of the soprano voice.

-The YMP-204 mellophone out performs the competition by at least a mile. Very smooth valve action, I consider near professional quality, if not professional quality. The scale on this horn is even, a thumb saddle on the first valve slide is a useful feature. The horn is free blowing and produces a warm alto voice tone when paired with a deep V cup mouthpiece such as a Blessing mello 5. Chris Nalls considers the 204 to be a near professional instrument (www.mellocast.com Episode #75). I own a Yamaha 204 and regularly play it with a Blessing mello 5, a true alto voice mouthpiece. A heavier mouthpiece, such as the Blessing 5 or IYM, helps balance out the horn as this model is slightly bell heavy. For more information on the YMP-204 please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/Yamaha%20YMP204.htm

www.mellocast.com Episode #9

- The Yamaha YBH-301 marching baritone is a very unique horn as it has a significantly larger bore size in comparison to the competition. A large quantity of air is vital in making this horn speak well. Valve action is smooth but the stroke distance is slightly longer than what one may consider normal. I feel this model is very rewarding for the highly skilled, experienced musician. I own a Yamaha and play it regularly with a Bach 5G mouthpiece.

-The Yamaha YEP-202 marching only euphonium is an excellent horn. It shares its valve casing and .571” bore size with the marching baritone; however it has a wrap which is more open than the baritone complimented with a larger bell tale. I feel this horn tends to play slightly flat but is not difficult to pull into tune (key is more air). Surprisingly, this horn blends well with the concert style euphonium. I own a Yamaha YEP-202 and play it when I have the time with a Bach 5G mouthpiece.

-The Yamaha YBB-202 marching only tuba has gained an excellent reputation with the Yamaha corps members I marched with in Blue Band. I have not been able to track one done yet to test play (if anyone can assist me in this please let me know, I would really appreciate it!!!). The horn is considered well balance in the carry and playing position with multiple places for a player to find a comfortable grip. One very unique and impressive quality of this horn is that it has a professional grade bell. JTS5032, could you add any more about the 202?

Dynasty

-The M541 Mellophone is simply the best Dynasty Mellophone I have ever played. I play tested the M541 with a custom mello 6 mouthpiece which is owned by a friend. This horn features sturdy construction with good valve action. It is very well balanced and comfortable to be held in the playing and carry position. Intonation is relatively even but has a brighter tone than I personally care for. The horn play tested is owned by East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania Warrior marching band. For more information on the Dynasty M541 mellophone please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/Dynasty%20...MT%20Review.htm

-The Dynasty M570 marching baritone is an excellent horn. This horn is light weight, balanced, even intonation, and free blowing; perfect for the beginning marcher and yet good enough to keep a seasoned musician satisfied. This is my favorite Dynasty horn I have played. So good, as a matter of fact, even though I own a Yamaha YBH-301, I still would love to own this horn! I played this horn with the East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania Warrior marching band. I utilized a Dynasty 6 ½ A small shank mouthpiece.

-The Dynasty M875 marching only tuba is large for a 4/4 sized tuba. Many consider the 4th valve to be an invaluable feature. Personally, I could have done without the extra weight. The balance of this horn is somewhat front heavy and is not very comfortable to hold in the carry position. An annoying but not critical issue with this horn was the tendency for the ‘mother of pearl’ fingers buttons to easily fall off. Overall this horn had a tendency to play flat. Mouthpiece choice for me on this instrument is a Bach gold plate 24AW mega-tone mouthpiece. The smaller mouthpiece made it easier to bring the horn into tune as compared to those with larger mouthpiece preferences. In spite of its flaws this is a solid horn, worthy of being performed on in any brass ensemble setting. I do not own this horn but have performed on it in the DCA venue.

King:

-The King 1121 mellophone: please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/King%201121%20Review.htm

www.mellocast.com Episode #8

-The King 1127 marching baritone was a huge disappointment to me when I played tested it. Intonation was not a huge concern; however I found the 1124 to be very stuffy with the valve cluster uncomfortably distant from the mouthpiece. During the play test I was able to utilize the following mouthpieces: Bach 6 1/2A, 5G, and 1G. I had slightly better results with the larger mouthpieces but the horn still felt extremely stuffy and unresponsive. I play tested this horn at an authorized Conn-Selmer dealer.

Quantum:

-The Quantum mellophone: please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/Jupiter%20...tum%205050S.htm

www.mellocast.com Episode #39

In summary:

I feel the Yamaha brass line offers the best overall product. The alto and soprano voices truly are the best in the market. While it can be argued who has the best low brass voices, the quality of the Yamaha low brass is nothing to laugh at. The Dynasty line comes in at second with a strong low brass and respectable upper brass. I do feel as Jupiter works the quirks out of the Quantum line Dynasty may find its product line surpassed. I know the least about the King and Quantum lines, yet feel confident enough to predict that Jupiter will continue to develop and improve the Quantum line. At this time I do not foresee any immediate product re-evaluation and development by King which I find disappointing.

QUOTE (wvu80 @ Aug 10 2008, 12:36 PM)

How does the new Jupiter brass sound? Was it up to DCI standards for durability and quality?

I have not been able to play the Jupiter marching brass; however I recently played a Jupiter BBb concert tuba. It played very well with a very nice, warm tone with minimal back pressure. The valve action is smooth and quick. I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of this instrument! http://www.jupitermusic.com/jbi_instrument...d=1&pId=166

As a side note, I felt Jersey Surf had an excellent performance on the Quantum horns at DCI East. Based on that performance alone I feel the Quantum line should be given serious consideration.

QUOTE (wvu80 @ Aug 10 2008, 12:36 PM)

I saw several corps using very large mouthpieces. Comments on MP's?

As I have matured I have come to the realization that there is no such thing as a ‘magic mouthpiece’. I am a firm believer that a musician should utilize the mouthpiece that best works with their embouchure. In some instances, such as a bell heavy mellophone, a large or heavy weight mouthpiece will help balance out the horn in the hands of the musician.

QUOTE (wvu80 @ Aug 10 2008, 12:36 PM)

Would you buy a used brass instrument from a drum corps?

I have and probably will again. I purchased a Yamaha marching euphonium from Crown last fall. It plays well and is in very good condition for a two year old drum corps horn. There was a bit more platting wear on the third valve and the last crook before the bell tale. Thankfully no pitting. I figure the wear in the high contact areas was accelerated by excessive polishing with an abrasive polish.

Please note that mellocast episode #78 is now posted, interview with John Meehan, Brass Caption Head for the Blue Devils. www.mellocst.com

This post has been edited by Penn State: Mar 8 2009, 04:43 PM

*********************************************************

To add to my original post:

I finally was able to play the Yamaha YBB-202 marching only tuba today. It lived up to it's reputation. The horn is very well balanced in the playing position, little effort is needed by the arms to hold the horn up and is as comfortable as a 30 lbs tuba can be in the carry position. It produces a large, round, warm tone. Intonation is excellent. I did not have any immediate concerns with the low C or Gb (I neglected to bring my tuner). My only complaint is snapping the horn down from the playing position,it is not as easy as on the Dynasty M875. IMO the YBB-202 is as close to the perfect marching tuba as you'll find now.

side note: as of today I have played in the arch with an all Dynasty and all Yamaha line. I can't describe why at this time, the Yamaha line just had more 'oomph' to it.

*********************************************************

[deltabass]

I finally was able to play the Yamaha YBB-202 marching only tuba today... and is as comfortable as a 30 lbs tuba can be in the carry position.

That is most likely because the Yamaha tubas are only about 17 lbs. The King 1151 (at least the old model, there's a new model this year) and standard Dynasty tuba (whichever BD uses) both weigh about 30, and Jupiter and Kanstul horns are about 35 (and, yes, they are essentially identical). After a summer of marching King, picking up a Yamaha at the booth at finals was beyond elementary.

[Penn State]

That is most likely because the Yamaha tubas are only about 17 lbs. The King 1151 (at least the old model, there's a new model this year) and standard Dynasty tuba (whichever BD uses) both weigh about 30, and Jupiter and Kanstul horns are about 35 (and, yes, they are essentially identical). After a summer of marching King, picking up a Yamaha at the booth at finals was beyond elementary.

Actually, if you like to nit pick....

Thank you for your inquiry. Yamaha's line of marching brass was basically created from the ground up. We did look at the competition and found a few good features that we brought over initially, but now with multiple generations of instruments under our belt, they are uniquely Yamaha.

As far as the 202 tuba; we tested it for two whole DCI summers with the Cavaliers and Cadets before we launched the product. Our goal was to provide a light instrument, but with incredible projection and sound. Therefore, the body and wrap itself is actually still at 4/4 size instrument. However, the bell is off of our line of professional C-tubas that all are 5/4 size. Yet, the weight is still slim at around 25 lbs. All of these specs have created an instrument that is light to carry around either in the hands or on the shoulder and the instrument is nearly perfectly balanced while on the shoulder. Finally, we changed around the leadpipe a bit so that when you are horns up, the condensation does not run into your mouth.

Overall, all of the corps, colleges and high schools that use this product have been very happy with the durability, sound and ease of use. Unfortunately I do not have any of the corps contacts, but the best source of the information you are looking for would be to talk to the brass caption heads or some of the players from the corps that march Yamaha:

Bluecoats

Cadets

Crossmen

Cavaliers

Madison Scouts

Vanguard

and others.

Thanks.

Mat

Matthew S. Clemens

Product Specialist - Wind Instruments

Band and Orchestra Division

Yamaha Corporation of America

[camel lips]

To me, it seems that the initial question of instruments has strayed from its original point. I believe the initial discussion was on what each line was playing on instrument wise as well as mouthpiece selection. Here is what I remember from the World Class Corps during the 2008 season:

(Alphabetical Order only)

Dynasty Lines:

Blue Devils (2nd)

Glassmen (11th)

Pacific Crest (17th)

Jupiter Lines:

The Academy (18th)

King Lines:

Phantom Regiment (1st)

Blue Stars (8th)

Blue Knights (9th)

Boston Crusaders (10th)

Spirit (15th)

Mandarins (19th)

Pioneer (20th)

Yamaha Lines:

Cavaliers (3rd)

Carolina Crown (4th)

The Cadets (5th)

Bluecoats (6th)

Santa Clara Vanguard (7th)

Madison Scouts (12th)

Crossmen (13th)

Colts (14th)

Troopers (16th)

*Mouthpieces, each corps uses specific mouthpiece as determined by their Brass Caption Head. Those decisions are done to help the hornline achieve the resultant sound that the caption head hears in their head when they the hornline plays. This also comes from personal experience as an educator or performer and from relationships that are forged over the years. "What do you guys use" is a question that gets asked amongst those in the activity. There are plenty of mouthpiece manufacturers out there that make quality equipment, the real choice is what do you hear in your head and what will get that on the field.

Now here are some questions (and my answers) that may help illustrate the various points in this discussion.

1. Does any one of these instruments give any corps a competitive advantage? No, because the pedagogy taught to the members dictates the overall understanding of the techniques involved in the process of making a sound while on the move. Ability level of the members in the hornline also dictate the level of success of that particular ensemble. A corps made up of college age music majors will sound different than the same age group of people that are only playing during the competitive season. (this doesn't always hold true, but is a means of providing you with the point of talent/training equals better result.)

2. What gives the corps a competitive advantage?

*Staging on the field.

If the trumpet line is playing a feature and are on the back hash of the field while the rest of the corps is on the front sideline, that is a problem.

*Technical Difficulty of the book being played while on the move.

If the book is rather easy in terms of its demand on the performer and the collective whole of the hornline executes the music at a high level, they will be rewarded for their performance. Whereas, if the book is very difficult and there are gaps in the sound or inconsistencies in the performance, that line will not be given the points they are looking for.

*Consistency of sound from player to player.

The Jim Ott trophy is given to the corps that performs their show the best (in comparison to the rest of the field of contestants) on finals night ON THE FIELD, not in the stands. In some years it was determined over three nights. This means, that while the individual members in any given hornline will perform their show the best on finals will win the trophy (under certain guidelines).

*Programming.

A shows programming from beginning to end will take the audience and judging community on a journey through their show. Using various World Champions as an example, you can see the execution of each show done to a very high level. Recently, the "Show" aspect of their performances really garners more weight than the performance itself. Some hold true to their overall theme while some stray away from it (to a point). Those whose show is very cohesive from beginning to end are usually more apt to being within the top 5 than not. Those that are further down had shows (although entertaining) did not deliver the theme as did their competitors.

*Visual demand over musical demand.

If you are running around on the field at a beat of 200+ beats per minute, you will not be able to produce the same sounds that were achieved in the 70's and 80's when the drill design was not nearly as fast paced or intricate. If the Visual demand is quite high and the musical demand is quite low, then one suffers because of another. You can not deny that. Some corps have made it an art form in terms of achieving high visual and musical demands in their designs by being leaders in the activity. SCV, Cadets, Star and Cavaliers all did some great things during the 80's and early 90's to set the drum corps idiom onto the path that we are on currently. In this day, you can't go to a drum corps show without some corps marching at 200+ bpm at some point in their production. That has an effect on the music itself.

3. What makes a hornline LOUD? The pedagogy being taught. Although design does have something to do with the instrument and its carrying power in a stadium, the means of teaching to make that sound is really where it all comes from. Some corps believe that volume is an effect and to only be used to garner that specific effect. Other corps use it as a means of pride. (We play louder than any other hornline on the field.) That may be well and good, but the overall issue is are those members being taught how to make representative sounds while maintaining a centered, focussed and resonant sound. The era of playing as loud as you can and breaking phrases to breathe and having gaps in the sound are gone. Listening closely to recordings of those "Loud Hornlines of the past", you will hear exactly what I am talking about. Memory will fade over the years. What sounded loud to you at one specific moment now will not have the same effect 20 years from now. You then begin to believe what you want to believe was done at that moment. You may have been effected by the sheer volume of it and not remember the tone qualities coming out of some of the members in the line. A contrabass can not hold a loud note as long as a soprano player can. So with the argument of 8 contrabasses playing louder than 16 tuba players may be true but at what cost? Tone Quality, Balance, blended sounds, intonation, or sheer volume.

4. B-flat vs. G. The G bugle sounds the way it does not because of the bore size of the instrument (though that does have an effect), but because as you add more tubing to an instrument (1 valve, 2 valves, 3 valves, etc.) you add more resistance to the instrument making appear less free blowing. The vertical two valve instruments of the 70's, 80's and early 90's had a very specific sound characteristic. In the right hands, the sounds were very intense and energetic. The scoring or voicing of the instruments also had something to do with the sound of the hornline. A Jim Ott line sounded different than a Wayne Downey line, than a Jim Wren line, than a Jim Prime line. Each line has a specific way they sounded by means of voicing and show design. In acoustics, higher tones will always sound louder than lower ones. Listening to a piccolo player in an orchestra is easier to hear than the tuba. With a G line, that was made clear by the fact that the B-flat line was never an issue on the field. When the B-flat line became legal in 2000, those that moved to the B-flat side were better in tune to those on the G side of things. Does that make the G line worse than the B-flat side? No, just different. If you listen to Cadets in 2005 and 2007, there were some moments of very loud intense playing. Same with those lines back in the day. Is one better than another, no - just different. So, with adding valves, which added more tubing to the instrument, thus adding more resistance made those instruments a bit more difficult to respond. So to compensate for that, those companies that built those horns adjusted the overall bore size to compensate for the added tubing and "resistance". Plus, those companies were not making money selling G bugles to high school or college bands. With B-flat instruments now, some instrument manufacturers sell instruments that are considered "large bore" sizes to get the same sound that you hear on the DCI field of competition. Some bands don't teach the way that Drum Corps do, so they don't get the same results that Drum Corps get.

5. Performance Training. This is the biggest factor to consider. If you have adult aged members (18-22 yrs old) in a hornline that have been playing brass instruments for a while, the resultant sound will be closer to the quality the caption head hears in their head when they play. The issue then becomes making that sound happen while on the move. Everyone tries to make this happen both on the move and in the arc. Those that do this the best, make it look effortless. The training is paramount to this entire discussion. Now, with the visual (marching and dance...yes some corps do some aspects of dance) and musical demands placed on the members, the training needed to be able to play at a high level is so very important. There are more injuries brought on by the visual demands placed on these members than what was asked for back in the 70's and 80's.

Sorry for the tangent. Perhaps this will add some more fodder for discussion.

RV

I agree with many of your points.Thanks for such a well thought out post.