DCI messes up embouchre?

[rayfallon]

Rehearsal techniques need to evolve as much as the design, execution and performance aspects of the activity.

NFL players are no less tough than they were 30 years ago, but the game and players have changed, so the coaching techniques should adjust accordingly to maintain successes.

As far as the original intent of the post........drum corps really screwed my embouchure up, but that was mostly because I was a clarinet player taught by old school bugle players in the basement rest room of a Catholic school on an instrument that would have been used for spare parts on a Chevy Malibu if I was not playing on it! That and the fact that back in the days of symmetrical drill you almost always 'dressed' in one direction, so I cheated my chops to mostly one side! (I happened to be a side 2 guy the first few years on the field......)

But I would not trade that 'training' for a minute! There's lots I learned from the old school cats.

Always enjoy these threads!

Peace,

Dennis

####, Den - hope I'm not one of those old school guys!!! (ouch)

[rayfallon]

You have to know your personal limits in this regard. You have to pace yourself and use self control in doing such exercises so that you don't cause injury to yourself.

Be smart about it. No one knows your chops better than you. Sure, always push to improve and to give your best performance as far as you are capable.

Don't just blast because someone has shouted at you, "MORE, LOUDER!"

I thought this post was done, but - I'm going to respectfully take issue with your assertion that no one knows your [her] chops better than you [she]. I think that many many young (high school for example) players don't know their chops well at all - many think they've hit a wall much sooner than they're capable of playing, many are unaware that they drove through a wall some time back. That's really one of the advantages of an experienced staff, to help each player find his or her potential and reach it without backing away, or going too far.

There was a movement in early DCI to play entire shows between mp and mf in the name of "tone quality." I think the activity got a worse reputation from that period than the one we get from being chop busters. A good staff willl help you find your envelope, your limits, and then give you techniques to "push them."

Glad you love the activity... it's rich in history and musical potential - read some of (for instance) Frank Dorritie's stuff to get a sense of where we've come from, and then start writing your own chapters about the activity's future. We can't wait to see where you and your corps-mates take us next!!!

Edited February 18, 2009 by rayfallon

[Dennis Argul]

####, Den - hope I'm not one of those old school guys!!! (ouch)

Sorry Ray........problem is now I am too!

[Martybucs]

I thought this post was done, but - I'm going to respectfully take issue with your assertion that no one knows your [her] chops better than you [she]. I think that many many young (high school for example) players don't know their chops well at all - many think they've hit a wall much sooner than they're capable of playing, many are unaware that they drove through a wall some time back. That's really one of the advantages of an experienced staff, to help each player find his or her potential and reach it without backing away, or going too far.

There was a movement in early DCI to play entire shows between mp and mf in the name of "tone quality." I think the activity got a worse reputation from that period than the one we get from being chop busters. A good staff willl help you find your envelope, your limits, and then give you techniques to "push them."

Glad you love the activity... it's rich in history and musical potential - read some of (for instance) Frank Dorritie's stuff to get a sense of where we've come from, and then start writing your own chapters about the activity's future. We can't wait to see where you and your corps-mates take us next!!!

You make a very good point, but it is hard for an instructor, even the best, to know when an individual has hit their limits when facing 50-60 or more of those individuals. Sure you will encounter players that may be lazy about pushing their abilities and may need to be prodded, but you can't even tell who those individuals are in such a large group. I would doubt, though, that there are many "lazy" players in either DCI or DCA.

I'm assuming that someone that has reached a fairly proficient level of ability, on a brass instrument, will have experienced, "going a little too far", a couple of times already and hopefully, will be mindful of their limits. Everyone should strive to exceed what they've done before in order to improve and yes, there is sometimes discomfort involved.

I have seen individuals completely destroy their chops, beyond repair, by playing too hard, long, loud, and not resting before doing it again. All to keep up with their peers in the line. I'm not making that up. One friend, who loves to play trumpet more than anything, disregarded his limits and injured the orbicularis oris muscle. They can't repair it, especially since there is no attachment to bone for that muscle. He still plays, but he is pretty much done in a maximum of 20 minutes.

I've played under some great horn guys, Truman Crawford, Tony Yaklich, Red Winser, Ray Eyler, Matt Krempasky, and some others, but they were great at getting the hornline to sound the way they wanted and at suggesting exercises. There was never much one on one. They would do the loud soft loud blasting exercise thing. I would see swollen chops on some after doing that. I would usually "take it easy" doing those exercises and no one has ever complained about my not being able to play loud enough.

No matter how experienced the staff member is, they can't feel whether there is pain or not, when the person plays and a teenager might be unwilling to say so. Pain is a valuable message your body gives you to tell you, "Stop what you're doing". I know the old saying goes, "No pain, no gain" and to a reasonable extent there is truth to this. On a one on one basis with a student, I think a good instructor/teacher will be able to tell the limits of that person before there is damage. In a horn arc, I think it is near impossible to tell, on an individual basis, who is at the threshold of damage. I feel only the player can actually tell that they should back off before injury occurs.

I have been playing for over 45 years and yes, I'm still learning, but I also know a thing or two about playing and giving lessons.(Not to your level, I'm sure. I mean that with the utmost respect, for I am aware of your reputation.) I'm just trying to clarify my point in an effort to possibly help someone avoid damage to their chops. Not to tell them to slack off - just to be careful and mindful of their limits when doing extreme exercises.

I do read Frank's articles and ones by others, as well. I'm always trying to learn. The trick to learning is in knowing what to keep and knowing what to pass up. That too, is a never ending learning process!

That got long on me, sorry.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Martybucs

[rayfallon]

You make a very good point, but it is hard for an instructor, even the best, to know when an individual has hit their limits when facing 50-60 or more of those individuals. Sure you will encounter players that may be lazy about pushing their abilities and may need to be prodded, but you can't even tell who those individuals are in such a large group. I would doubt, though, that there are many "lazy" players in either DCI or DCA.

I'm assuming that someone that has reached a fairly proficient level of ability, on a brass instrument, will have experienced, "going a little too far", a couple of times already and hopefully, will be mindful of their limits. Everyone should strive to exceed what they've done before in order to improve and yes, there is sometimes discomfort involved.

I have seen individuals completely destroy their chops, beyond repair, by playing too hard, long, loud, and not resting before doing it again. All to keep up with their peers in the line. I'm not making that up. One friend, who loves to play trumpet more than anything, disregarded his limits and injured the orbicularis oris muscle. They can't repair it, especially since there is no attachment to bone for that muscle. He still plays, but he is pretty much done in a maximum of 20 minutes.

I've played under some great horn guys, Truman Crawford, Tony Yaklich, Red Winser, Ray Eyler, Matt Krempasky, and some others, but they were great at getting the hornline to sound the way they wanted and at suggesting exercises. There was never much one on one. They would do the loud soft loud blasting exercise thing. I would see swollen chops on some after doing that. I would usually "take it easy" doing those exercises and no one has ever complained about my not being able to play loud enough.

No matter how experienced the staff member is, they can't feel whether there is pain or not, when the person plays and a teenager might be unwilling to say so. Pain is a valuable message your body gives you to tell you, "Stop what you're doing". I know the old saying goes, "No pain, no gain" and to a reasonable extent there is truth to this. On a one on one basis with a student, I think a good instructor/teacher will be able to tell the limits of that person before there is damage. In a horn arc, I think it is near impossible to tell, on an individual basis, who is at the threshold of damage. I feel only the player can actually tell that they should back off before injury occurs.

I have been playing for over 45 years and yes, I'm still learning, but I also know a thing or two about playing and giving lessons.(Not to your level, I'm sure. I mean that with the utmost respect, for I am aware of your reputation.) I'm just trying to clarify my point in an effort to possibly help someone avoid damage to their chops. Not to tell them to slack off - just to be careful and mindful of their limits when doing extreme exercises.

I do read Frank's articles and ones by others, as well. I'm always trying to learn. The trick to learning is in knowing what to keep and knowing what to pass up. That too, is a never ending learning process!

That got long on me, sorry.

[rayfallon]

You make a very good point, but it is hard for an instructor, even the best, to know when an individual has hit their limits when facing 50-60 or more of those individuals. Sure you will encounter players that may be lazy about pushing their abilities and may need to be prodded, but you can't even tell who those individuals are in such a large group. I would doubt, though, that there are many "lazy" players in either DCI or DCA.

I'm assuming that someone that has reached a fairly proficient level of ability, on a brass instrument, will have experienced, "going a little too far", a couple of times already and hopefully, will be mindful of their limits. Everyone should strive to exceed what they've done before in order to improve and yes, there is sometimes discomfort involved.

I have seen individuals completely destroy their chops, beyond repair, by playing too hard, long, loud, and not resting before doing it again. All to keep up with their peers in the line. I'm not making that up. One friend, who loves to play trumpet more than anything, disregarded his limits and injured the orbicularis oris muscle. They can't repair it, especially since there is no attachment to bone for that muscle. He still plays, but he is pretty much done in a maximum of 20 minutes.

I've played under some great horn guys, Truman Crawford, Tony Yaklich, Red Winser, Ray Eyler, Matt Krempasky, and some others, but they were great at getting the hornline to sound the way they wanted and at suggesting exercises. There was never much one on one. They would do the loud soft loud blasting exercise thing. I would see swollen chops on some after doing that. I would usually "take it easy" doing those exercises and no one has ever complained about my not being able to play loud enough.

No matter how experienced the staff member is, they can't feel whether there is pain or not, when the person plays and a teenager might be unwilling to say so. Pain is a valuable message your body gives you to tell you, "Stop what you're doing". I know the old saying goes, "No pain, no gain" and to a reasonable extent there is truth to this. On a one on one basis with a student, I think a good instructor/teacher will be able to tell the limits of that person before there is damage. In a horn arc, I think it is near impossible to tell, on an individual basis, who is at the threshold of damage. I feel only the player can actually tell that they should back off before injury occurs.

I have been playing for over 45 years and yes, I'm still learning, but I also know a thing or two about playing and giving lessons.(Not to your level, I'm sure. I mean that with the utmost respect, for I am aware of your reputation.) I'm just trying to clarify my point in an effort to possibly help someone avoid damage to their chops. Not to tell them to slack off - just to be careful and mindful of their limits when doing extreme exercises.

I do read Frank's articles and ones by others, as well. I'm always trying to learn. The trick to learning is in knowing what to keep and knowing what to pass up. That too, is a never ending learning process!

That got long on me, sorry.

Marty,

You write with passion, which is 95% of this game. The guys you mentioned are some of my all-time heroes by the way... I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on - I think the nut of what we're both getting at is that idea that an instructor is working with 60 (or more now) players all the time. This is sort of my pet peeve with drum corps - we spend virtually endless hours in a semi-circle or on the field, playing en masse so much of the time. In general we have 10 minutes of show music, 5 minutes of parade and encore music (that virtually never gets worked on) and a 20 - 30 minute "technique block." With the number of hours that we play, instructors should get one on one time - they really should. I think of it as the tyrany of the semi-circle. You know who was great? John Sasso, Frank's guru and eventually (toward the end of his run) mine as well. He worked better with small sections and individuals, and our rehearsals were spent split down into really small groups. When we were together on the field, the line was divided into like 6 mini-corps, with less playing for the masses and more exposure for the individual.

I've always thought that the two things that drive me the most crazy are the staff members walking across the field in their cargo shorts, tee shirts, badge and messenger bags while the corps sets up, and the one guy standing in the middle of a semi circle for hours while techs stand around with their thumbs in places no thumb should ever go.

Finally - the idea that playing "louder" has all that much to do with the volume of the ensemble is one of those concepts that has had people shaking their heads at our activity for a long time. Play better. Play in the middle of the sound of the instrument, and play with the people around you, and no stadium can eat up your sound. Not even Nickerson Field up here at Boston University, the black hole of drum corps horn lines.

Just my opinion. You voice yours really well. If I lose this throw down, I'm content to lose it to a better writer.

Ray

[Martybucs]

Ray,

Thank you for the kind words.

I don't think there's a loser here, at least between us. Now that I have a clearer idea of what you mean, I agree completely with what you say. It seems we both dislike and distrust the semi circle grind.

I'm sure corps do it now, too, but there's no substitute for the sectionals and learning to use your instrument and your chops as efficiently as possible.

"

I don't think of this as a throw down as much as two "horn guys" making sense and saying so.

Marty,

You write with passion, which is 95% of this game. The guys you mentioned are some of my all-time heroes by the way... I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on - I think the nut of what we're both getting at is that idea that an instructor is working with 60 (or more now) players all the time. This is sort of my pet peeve with drum corps - we spend virtually endless hours in a semi-circle or on the field, playing en masse so much of the time. In general we have 10 minutes of show music, 5 minutes of parade and encore music (that virtually never gets worked on) and a 20 - 30 minute "technique block." With the number of hours that we play, instructors should get one on one time - they really should. I think of it as the tyrany of the semi-circle. You know who was great? John Sasso, Frank's guru and eventually (toward the end of his run) mine as well. He worked better with small sections and individuals, and our rehearsals were spent split down into really small groups. When we were together on the field, the line was divided into like 6 mini-corps, with less playing for the masses and more exposure for the individual.

I've always thought that the two things that drive me the most crazy are the staff members walking across the field in their cargo shorts, tee shirts, badge and messenger bags while the corps sets up, and the one guy standing in the middle of a semi circle for hours while techs stand around with their thumbs in places no thumb should ever go.

Finally - the idea that playing "louder" has all that much to do with the volume of the ensemble is one of those concepts that has had people shaking their heads at our activity for a long time. Play better. Play in the middle of the sound of the instrument, and play with the people around you, and no stadium can eat up your sound. Not even Nickerson Field up here at Boston University, the black hole of drum corps horn lines.

Just my opinion. You voice yours really well. If I lose this throw down, I'm content to lose it to a better writer.

Ray

[kickhaltsforlife]

The semi circle works when those section techs are standing right in front of bells... I know we had all of the techs walking around THE WHOLE hornline. The trumpet guy over in the low brass, the low brass guy in the trumpets... and they spend most of their time in front of bells... I also know we have a lot of sectional time.... and on the field, I often have a tech practically in my bell. I really feel lucky that I have a great brass staff, who cares about the line, but they focus a lot on the individual... I think it's a reason why we were awful at the beginning of the year, but by the end we had a great sound, and I know certain people around me on the field got a lot better as players due to what we were being taught, and how we were being evaluated... which is why I believe as my corps goes, it will be one of the reasons why the corps will be in unfamiliar territory.

But Marty and Ray... I don't really see an argument going on... I agree with everything that both of you are saying... and it is a great conversation about brass and drum corps.