2009 Could be Carolina Crown's year

[2000Cadet]

There's probably a corps that has a ton of rings under their belt, that placed for their standards a bit more disappointingly in 2008 that will come out of the gates like Mad Dogs next summer. This off season will certainly be the rattle in the cage they need.

And Crown? That'll probably be the first corps under their target list.

Agreed.

That said corps will learn big from the mistakes of this past summer and come out of the gate looking for blood. Also, I'm sure BD, Cavies and Phantom will have something to say.

But stranger things have happened.

[84BDsop]

Statistically, Crown would have to place 3rd the year before their first win.....(BD, Garfield, Star, etc)

[Bruckner8]

And before this year, no one had ever placed third in quarters, 2nd in semi's and 1st in finals. What's your point?

1st time for everything. I'd love for CI to be debunked. Some judges have been around since before Crown was born. Their relationships with the older corps are very strong. My pont is: CI shows how difficult it is to win, and to do so, one must first place 2nd or 3rd in a prior year. Crown has not yet done that.

I would argue that rather than looking at placements, you look at the scores and the scoring breakdowns. With a 96.8, Carolina Crown has the highest 4th place finish in DCI history (Previous was a 96.4 by the Cadets in 1999, who went on to win the following year).

Awesome. Thank you for using stats and history to make a point! No we're getting somewhere. My conclusion to what you say here, and given that I'm a firm believer in CI, is that all we've done (ie, the judges have done) is increase the liklihood of a tie. The judges keep giving higher and higher scores. We have a ceiling at 100. Face it, no one cares about scores, only placements. Do you think corps that score in the 98s are actually "achieving more" in a certain year than a corps that scored 97s in a differnt year? C'mon. Judges are told to "make a decision," ie RANK. They have a ceiling at 100. The rest doesn't even matter, IMO.

In the past 18 years (not counting 2008) the average score of a 4th place finishing corps was 95.1. That's a full 1.7 spread over the average. I think an argument can be made that Crown's score was more in the 3rd place range.

See above. Your point would make sense if scores actually corresponded to a corp's real achievement.

As for having to place 3rd... In the past 18 years, there have been four World Class corps that have placed 4th and come back to win the championship the following year...

1994 Blue Devils

2000 Cadets

2005 Cadets

2008 Phantom Regiment

All of those corps won before! I'd be impressed had you found a corps that placed 4th, then won, and had never won before! That's what you're claiming Crown will do.

I think not. I like your moxy though. Keep bringing the stats and historical significance...I love to learn new angles.

[Casaba]

I would prefer that they put out another show that the fans LOVE! let the placement happen as it happens

[84BDsop]

I would prefer that they put out another show that the fans LOVE! let the placement happen as it happens

QFT, brother!

[ouooga]

And before this year, no one had ever placed third in quarters, 2nd in semi's and 1st in finals. What's your point?

I would argue that rather than looking at placements, you look at the scores and the scoring breakdowns. With a 96.8, Carolina Crown has the highest 4th place finish in DCI history (Previous was a 96.4 by the Cadets in 1999, who went on to win the following year).

In the past 18 years (not counting 2008) the average score of a 4th place finishing corps was 95.1. That's a full 1.7 spread over the average. I think an argument can be made that Crown's score was more in the 3rd place range.

As for having to place 3rd... In the past 18 years, there have been four World Class corps that have placed 4th and come back to win the championship the following year...

You can't judge scores from year to year, since they're generally based on the corps that are around them that night (again, generally). Placements are what matters if you're discussing competitive inertia from year to year.

But I will say that I feel Crown will move up or at least stay the same next year. When Bluecoats took fourth in 06, it really felt like this was the absolute peak of their design/performance. Crown, after seeing them live in Indy, I truly feel that what they produced this season is not the absolute best they can produce. And for the record, I'm generally not a Crown fan.

Either way, 2009 is a lock for Cadets. There's a vibe in the air that I think most of us can feel. It's kind of like when you leave for school in the morning and all the stuff for meatloaf is sitting in the fridge. You spend the rest of the day in a bit of a dull mood over meatloaf. It may not be your favorite, but you know it's at least going to taste good, you'll like it because of all the ingredients and the love and care put into it, and as soon as you're done eating it you can start to dream about what's for dinner the next night.

If Crown stays exactly where they are (or move up) in 09, I'd start to look out for them in 2010.

Edited August 28, 2008 by ouooga

[Newseditor44]

All of those corps won before! I'd be impressed had you found a corps that placed 4th, then won, and had never won before! That's what you're claiming Crown will do.

I think not. I like your moxy though. Keep bringing the stats and historical significance...I love to learn new angles.

I aim to please

I'm split between your arguments and my desire to see more history made. There are a couple of things I see pointing in CC's favor...

Recruiting:

1. Popular! - Crown's ability to interact with the crowd and create shows that reach out and grab the audience is something that will attract students.

2. Upper Tier - Kids want to play with the best, and because of this, audition numbers will continue to rise. CC will have the pick of the litter, like their counterparts in Concord, Allentown, Rosemont, and Rockford.

3. Staff - One of th premiere teams in the activity. They know how to design, and how to communicate it to the kids.

4. Mojo - No one can argue that a little momentum never hurts.

You can't judge scores from year to year, since they're generally based on the corps that are around them that night (again, generally). Placements are what matters if you're discussing competitive inertia from year to year.

I can't say that I completely disagree, however, I thought corps weren't supposed to be judged against each other, rather against the scoring sheet? That being said, I think the scores are more of an indicator than placement, simply because you can have several corps hovering around one score, but shuffle in placement from night to night. A fourth place corps on Saturday, might really be a 2nd place corps all season, who just happened to have a bad night.

Arguments can be made both ways, I guess.

I know a lot of people have compared them to Star, but I would argue its less from a performance standpoint and more from an organizational standpoint. From the top down, they do everything right, and make decisions that will make them stronger, even if it means not winning. They want to perform, connect with the crowd. They don't want to shove anything in your face, or make you think. They say, "Sit back, relax, and let us entertain you. Oh and by the way, WE'RE ####### LOUD... and in tune!"

Edited August 28, 2008 by Newseditor44

[mn trumpter guy]

Recruiting:

1. Popular! - Crown's ability to interact with the crowd and create shows that reach out and grab the audience is something that will attract students.

2. Upper Tier - Kids want to play with the best, and because of this, audition numbers will continue to rise. CC will have the pick of the litter, like their counterparts in Concord, Allentown, Rosemont, and Rockford.

3. Staff - One of th premiere teams in the activity. They know how to design, and how to communicate it to the kids.

4. Mojo - No one can argue that a little momentum never hurts.

Absolutely- I have a been a fan of the Crown hornline since I got into drum corps- and despite the fact that their show concepts for the past two years have sounded... cheesy and silly... to me (yeah, I know, judgemental)... I can't help but love the shows; they are too well performed.

I had a friend in their colorguard this year, and despite my best efforts to find her, I kept getting dragged in by another member who was enthralling!

I have to agree that CI DOES exist... that doesn't change the fact that I think corps should have to EARN their place every year; just because 2006 cavaliers was amazing visually doesn't mean that I enjoyed 2007 or cut them any slack. If anything, I think it almost works opposite- once a corps demonstrates that they have the ability to put out a championship-level show, I think they should need to continue to up their game (something which I think a certain 2nd place corps failed to do, just my opinion).

I have to say, however, that despite how much things like predisposition to a corps #### me off, they do exist, and will unfortunately probably hinder CC in their quest. (although I must argue that the point of each corps' show should be to put on the best performance and entertain the crowd as much as possible using their techniques and styles, as opposed to trying to cater to the likes and dislikes of a few people in green shirts).

Maybe I'm mistaken, but doesn't it make sense that each corps should perform their show not to win, but to entertain the crowd as much as they can? It seems that that is what a corps like Madison does, placements be ######, and it is one of the things I love about them.

[contrajedi8]

Yeah. Next year should be their year. Just like everybody said that 2007 was going to be Bluecoats year.

[DCImonkey]

I told my friend that marched Crown that if they placed 3rd this year, they'd win next year because the path they've blazed since 2003 is almost identical to Star of Indiana's placement-wise. Alas, they finished 4th, so I look for them to finish 2nd next year :)