Hornline Scoring in 2008, or before

[Medeabrass]

It seems to me it's a combination of credibility earned by the hornline and the credibility of the staff's history. If you're a new challenger to the top, it seems to me that you have to prove yourself for a few years in a row before you are allowed into the "elite club" of the top 3 or 4. Once there, it seems to take several bad years in a row before you lose this credibility with the judges.

I also think how well a staff is able to articulate and defend their corps performance in critique also has an impact.

If your staff has earned credibility in the past (this is purely speculation) I imagine that a) the judges give them more leeway and b) they may be much better at playing the critique game...I wouldn't be surprised if some staff members are more intimidating to judges whether it's conscious or subconcious.

I think Crown's rise to elite brass status backs up my points.

[Perry S]

Good god...Phantom won the #### show, why are you people now harping on BD beating them in brass? BD's brass WAS better. Just because you LIKE Phantom's brass more doesn't make them better. "Better" is not subjective, it is based on criteria that trained judges (who I am 99% sure are more competent to judge brass than you are ) determine who is the best each year. I guess they should have swept all captions too huh?

I never thought a group of people could make me actually start to dislike a corps based on their rampant fanaticism. Drum Corps Planet should be renamed "Phantom Regiment for Phantom Phans Only, if You Have Anything to Say That is Not 100% Kissing Phantom's ### Then Don't Post Here Planet".

[corps-mudgeon]

Good god...Phantom won the #### show, why are you people now harping on BD beating them in brass? BD's brass WAS better. Just because you LIKE Phantom's brass more doesn't make them better. "Better" is not subjective, it is based on criteria that trained judges (who I am 99% sure are more competent to judge brass than you are ) determine who is the best each year. I guess they should have swept all captions too huh?

I never thought a group of people could make me actually start to dislike a corps based on their rampant fanaticism. Drum Corps Planet should be renamed "Phantom Regiment for Phantom Phans Only, if You Have Anything to Say That is Not 100% Kissing Phantom's ### Then Don't Post Here Planet".

PRFPPOIYHATSTINOHPKP#TDPHP? Nah, not catchy enough. I like DCP--short and pithy.

[cadetzoid]

The credibility of brass staffs is an interesting subject.

I would say that the reward given by judges is sometimes based on the credibility of the staff, and at times, the credibility of the judges as well.

It seems somewhat utopian to assume that scores, etc. are always fair and deserved, and not because of foul play or poor judging skill. Human nature places us in situations where trust or expectations lead us to assume things before they happen. We are sometimes delivered what we expected, more than expected, or less than what was expected. I would hope that the length of the summer allows for things to "even out" a bit, as judges gain multiple exposures to shows. Of all specifics on this thread, this point seems very relevant and perhaps under-considered by us fans, or even the brass staffs and judges.

With critique as it is now, it seems possible that corps A could be judged by the "finals" judge four times over the course of the summer, with corps B only judged once by the "finals" judge. With critiques no longer happening at every show, how does this all even out?

With limited exposure to a line, how does a judge know he or she is getting an even sample from corps to corps, allowing him or her to make the best informed decisions?

Does the comment, "well, just have everyone in the line play their a#$@^ off the whole time so you having nothing to risk", really cover every consideration.

How does this account for judges missing moments of demand or overt musicality if he or she simple missed it, with no additional opportunity to see the show again and catch more of what the brass line can do/is doing? Can you reward what you don't hear? Do you your decisions for those situations on previous work by a particular brass staff, one that carries more credibility or positive history than another?

[Bruckner8]

The credibility of brass staffs is an interesting subject.

I would say that the reward given by judges is sometimes based on the credibility of the staff, and at times, the credibility of the judges as well.

It seems somewhat utopian to assume that scores, etc. are always fair and deserved, and not because of foul play or poor judging skill. Human nature places us in situations where trust or expectations lead us to assume things before they happen.

Looks like another CI believer in the making...

[Russellrks]

I agree with you on most things Hroth so I am not going to get angry or anything :P Liking something is subjective, being better is not.

I can like something more than you can like the same thing. Something being better than something else is not subjective. If a criteria is established, such as, the higher a number is the better it is, then whether or not you like number 8 more than number 9 is irrelevant, number 9 is "better". People have a hard time separating those two things.

If judging in DCI was based on what you, the fan, likes more, then the criteria for a show being better than another one would be based on what you liked more. But it isn't. Currently the criteria is what is on the judging sheets as interpreted by the judging panel that is there that night. So you liking something has absolutely 0 relevance on it being better than something else in this case.

I looked up the definition of "Subjective" and these are just some of the examples I found...

1. Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias.

2. Influenced by personal opinion.

3. Modified by personal views, experience or background.

4. A point of view that expresses ones attitude, opinion or feelings.

If you apply these examples to the judges who are making the decisions as to who is "Better", I think you would have no choice but to come to the conclusion that "Who's Better" is subjective.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Russellrks

[whitedawn]

I heard a story from someone who marched in 03 that the mellos had this crazy continuing run in rocky point as they marched in a circle. The mellos in the back would relax and breathe, while those in the front would keep up the playing. Worked great until a judge jumped INTO the circle

you exaggerate. a lot.

Sure - the cadets are known for their full ensemble playing, and some balls to the walls endings where they seem to never let up, but for those other 10 minutes of their show, you can bet theyre using some smoke and mirrors as well.

no way, dude.

[ApathyJones]

I looked up the definition of "Subjective" and these are just some of the examples I found...

1. Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias.

2. Influenced by personal opinion.

3. Modified by personal views, experience or background.

4. A point of view that expresses ones attitude, opinion or feelings.

If you apply these examples to the judges who are making the decisions as to who is "Better", I think you would have no choice but to come to the conclusion that "Who's Better" is subjective.

I'll try to make this as simple as I can. There are a set of rules laid out by DCI that the Judges follow that ultimately determine scores, which in turn ultimately determine placement. If you define "better" or "best" as "highest placement" (which is the ONLY logical way to do so) then better and best is NOT subjective EVER.

You are arguing that the Judges make subjective calls to determine who gets a higher score. While that is true, it is ALSO part of the criteria of the rules, meaning that your argument breaks down.

Any NON-judge who thinks another corps is better than another is wrong! They simply like that corps better. the only way to actually determine which corps is the best is by following the model that is laid out by DCI and that is by accepting what the judges say.

[Russellrks]

I'll try to make this as simple as I can. There are a set of rules laid out by DCI that the Judges follow that ultimately determine scores, which in turn ultimately determine placement. If you define "better" or "best" as "highest placement" (which is the ONLY logical way to do so) then better and best is NOT subjective EVER.

You are arguing that the Judges make subjective calls to determine who gets a higher score. While that is true, it is ALSO part of the criteria of the rules, meaning that your argument breaks down.

Any NON-judge who thinks another corps is better than another is wrong! They simply like that corps better. the only way to actually determine which corps is the best is by following the model that is laid out by DCI and that is by accepting what the judges say.

You've made the statement that better or best is not subjective ever. Your argument appears to be that this is so because judges follow a set of rules that were laid out by DCI. Yet you agree with me that while in the process of following these rules judges make subjective calls to determine who gets a higher score. And you think that it is my argument that is breaking down?

And as far as any non-judge who thinks another corps is better being wrong, you'd probably be right most of the time, but there have been, are now, and will continue to be, judges who get it wrong from time to time as well.

Thanks for proving my point for me. You really did make it as simple as possible.

[salad315]

you exaggerate. a lot.

No, I dont. But your horn sarge. from that year may have