What would it take to get Pioneer from last place in World Class?

[OldManDrumCorps]

This is a tough topic, and I feel bad for Pioneer when I hear people say "world Class wannabe." A few of us remember when Pioneer wasn't a last place corps. I'm not entirely sure what happened, but I'm guessing it was a sudden loss of vets either due to corps hopping or aging out. In the late 90's, early 00's the drumline was on fire and the brass line could blow the audience off their seats. And they didn't have substantially larger lines back then. I remember one year the drumline scoring as high as 14th. And they did it playing Irish music and keeping the same ideals they have today. I would love to see Pioneer get back that glory, and I don't think Open Class is the way to do it.

Show design is a big part of it, you don't have to lose the Irish, but the show designs since 2002 (ish) have been very lack luster. I remember sitting down at the Toledo show in '02 to watch Pioneer and being severely disappointed, I expected so much more from them. The drumline was still good, but the show was so uninteresting. If nothing else it just needs to be a little more progressive. I don't have any specific examples, but several good ones have been mentioned.

A lot of staff has changed since then, and I would have sworn that was the issue. I have to say the "tough guy" mentality the staff had at Pio concerned me. I thought they took it too far. Making/letting kids practice or perform hurt and/or sick...not a good idea and it won't make anyone better. I hope those practices are gone.

Recruiting has also been mentioned, and that is going to be a big part of it. Remote camps(Texas or elsewhere) would be a great idea.

I'm glad you are asking these questions Donny, hopefully your job will not be in danger. We need to see Pio back in Semis and perhaps even further.

Honestly...you want another, more radical idea? DCA. Pioneer would fit in so well at DCA.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Blue and Gold

[cantgetenoughcorps]

Pioneer has always been a fairly enjoyable corps. I remember years back in the mid to late 90's when they were open class, and still making semis in DI/World Class. Then they switched to DI, and I think several factors kind of helped lower them to the bottom rung.

The question is if they really do need to place higher. Someone is going to place last every year. so what if Pioneer is last, if the kids are really having fun and learning alot during their summer, it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

That being said, I really don't know if the designers are making the show challenging enough. I honestly think the kids are capable of performing more difficult shows. Yes, there may be alot of kids that don't have any experience, but I think overall the kids are performing the shows given to them exremely well.

I don't think there is any problem with the Irish theme. I think it's cool they have stuck to their identity. But I do think there are a few more challenging Irish tunes out there that would suit Pioneer very well. Maybe start with more challenging music, and then maybe beef up the drill design. I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to see a little more challenging show, even if it means it isn't quite perfect come finals week.

[MikeZ]

People keep mentioning the design issues. I think one of the problems would be (and I am just guessing here) is that it has to be hard to design a show when you don't really know what your membership is going to be until late in the spring. If stronger members are moving to other corps and you are filling holes in May and June then it has to be tough to put a show together. I dont' know if it would be better to keep things very simple knowing that you are going to be getting lots of non-brass members in the hornline late in the spring, or stay with whatever numbers you have at the first two camps and plan on being small but designing the show to fit the talent you have. I don't think there are any easy answers here, and the bottom line still seems to be recruiting. Its easy to sit at your computer and dream up ways to get tons of kids at the early camps, but making that dream actually happen is going to be tough. I wish there was more I could do to help, but due to family health issues I am tied to my location here in Cincinnati. I hope that this thread can at least get the discussion going at the Pio office to improve the placement a little. For those fighting the good fight (Roman, Donny, Steve West, etc) good luck and I hope some good comes of this thread.

Mike Z

Pioneer bari/euph 94-98

Edited September 21, 2008 by MikeZ

[Galen]

People keep mentioning the design issues. I think one of the problems would be (and I am just guessing here) is that it has to be hard to design a show when you don't really know what your membership is going to be until late in the spring. If stronger members are moving to other corps and you are filling holes in May and June then it has to be tough to put a show together. I dont' know if it would be better to keep things very simple knowing that you are going to be getting lots of non-brass members in the hornline late in the spring, or stay with whatever numbers you have at the first two camps and plan on being small but designing the show to fit the talent you have. I don't think there are any easy answers here, and the bottom line still seems to be recruiting. Its easy to sit at your computer and dream up ways to get tons of kids at the early camps, but making that dream actually happen is going to be tough. I wish there was more I could do to help, but due to family health issues I am tied to my location here in Cincinnati. I hope that this thread can at least get the discussion going at the Pio office to improve the placement a little. For those fighting the good fight (Roman, Donny, Steve West, etc) good luck and I hope some good comes of this thread.

Mike Z

Pioneer bari/euph 94-98

I'd agree with this. As far as I know, Pioneer has been the only Div 1 corps in the last few years that has found themselves facing large numbers of "holes" in May and June (far more than the normal slew of preseason injuries that take a few people out of other corps). And the answer is, "Recruit, recruit, recruit- and give the recruits something to come TO"

[Matt Billock]

I would like to see the pioneer "swagger" come back. When I first saw this corps in 1998, (ironically the show had the same name as the 2008 show "Celtic Reflections" - check the 1998 video) I was impressed with how well they carried themselves and the attitude that they were Div I. I still like the corps but the swagger is gone.

I would love to hear stories from the those who marched in the mid to late 90's about what started that swagger? Was it Roman Jr. at the helm? Was it a strong core of members?

I would give anything to see this corps succeed competitively.

When I marched, the "swagger" was present in all areas of the corps. The visual staff had a focus on our image as marchers, trying to form us into hardcore marching machines. We had not breaking at attention pounded into us more than I can recall in any other corps, and they made that an integral part of the visual program. Most of the visual staff really pushed us to feel confident, and to act like we were the best (because, at that time, we were the best in div 2). One of my more poignant memories of marching in Pioneer in '95 was a show warmup about halfway through the season. We were doing our pre-show basics, and Mike Powers felt that the Glassmen had set up a little too close to us. So he pointed the hornline block at them, and just had us march towards them until they moved. It was a bit of a dick move, sure, but it summed up the attitude that the staff was trying to instill in us. Once that uniform was on, you were on no matter where you were. When you were chosen to guard the block, you took up your position and did not move. When you were going into retreat, you took your space and didn't give an inch (even with Boston Crusaders next to you doing the same thing, and everyone trying to fit through the gate in Allentown). Things like that kept the corps members' confidence up.

We also had several very dedicated members in the hornline who pushed the attitude through - many who could have marched places like Cavies, Madison, Phantom, etc. These people had been there for years, and took their roles as vets very seriously. I still remember our horn sergeant reaming us out because we let Kiwanis Kavaliers come within a half-point of us in brass. It was this two-pronged approach to instilling confidence in the corps, to instilling the "swagger," that made being in that corps a great experience for me.

Of course it didn't hurt that we were on our way to our second Div 2 championship, and that we hadn't been defeated in div 2 all summer (they even made special "undefeated" patches to hand out to the membership at the end of the season - I still have mine). Part of the swagger needs to come from the staff, but having solid achievements to point towards also contributes a lot.

So to answer the question, the swagger was driven mostly by the staff and the membership itself. Roman Jr. had an influence, sure (I can still hear him whistling revelry when I wake up sometimes), but to be honest I don't remember him having that much of an effect on the corps. Perhaps it's just my memories fading, though.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Matt Billock

[Galen]

Roman Jr. had an influence, sure (I can still hear him whistling revelry when I wake up sometimes),

I can still remember the times he did that when we were in Texas.

[PioneerLeadSop]

What happened was in 2000 and 2001 the corps lost a huge number of supervet(5 years & up) talented members and the ones that didn't age-out sensed the downfall and moved on. That swagger you talked about I think was created by those members. We wanted to let everyone know that we might be smaller, but we could still play.

[corps8294]

I think Pioneer started their rise upwards in 1989, back in A-60. They had a new look, a new attitude, and some new talent (exception being the colorguard). In the years following, they grew and grew, and they found their niche with their Irish motif. The talent kept coming in and so did the Irish themed shows. During this time, the shows started to become very cliche and extremely cheesy; a lot of repeated charts. The guard was still an achilles heel. Then came 1997, the move to Division I. They came out with Riverdance, which everyone thought would be an excellent vehicle to get them on thier way upwards. Needless to say, the show was not produced very well. However, it did not flop. The talent and size remained, as 1998 brought in a huge corps. Unfortunately, the program was very, very dull, cheesy, and lackluster. They also attempted a pseudo 27th Lancer look (sorry; the 27th Lancers cannot be replicated). The show construction lacked thorough thinking, and ultimately was a huge let down for a very talented group of people. In 1999, the corps was significantly smaller; but had a lot of fight, and proved that a small corps can duke it out with those of more numbers. This also happened in 2000. Unfortunately, the programming remained the same. After 2000, the bottom fell out and we now have a result of years of lackluster and ultra-conservative programming on all levels. The colorguard has always been a weak spot for the Pioneer organization, as I've been told by people who have taught there that the guard is required to be as conservative as possible.

This isn't the only corps to experience programming issues. In 1993, Northern Aurora moved up to Division I with a full 128 member corps. A poorly written, and bad choice, show of the music of the rock band Kansas nearly killed that organization.

It's been repeated many times, and I agree, the young people at Pioneer are getting an excellent education from people who really, really care about them. And from what I've read, Donny, you are one of those die hards that should be given a medal for your dedication and caring. However, until the reigns are loosened, and the creativity is able to flow; Pioneer will remain where they are. The main problems are programming and "living within" an image. Just because one has an image; doesn't mean he has to play into, become, or remain that image. Keep those identifying images, the shamrock on the coat; but tone it down and explore, explore, explore different avenues of music and visual; this includes the guard!

Instead of "Irish shoved in your face," the fans and community should eventually say, "when thier Irish eyes are smiling;" because the corps finally evolved and started moving on up!

Keep on doing your great work Donny. It's my hope that the hierarchy at Pioneer will not discipline you for starting this thread.

[heycameraguy]

2000 was an unique year. Small corps, but a progressive brass book that the hornline absolutely rocked, a drumline coming off perhaps their best year ever in 1999, and an attitude that they were just as good as the other Div 1 corps led the corps' to its highest placement ever. But the corps had 19 ageouts out of 88 members. That may explain why the corps could make a semifinal run even with a number of younger, inexperienced members.

In order to get older members and members that will stay longer, the corps must make a committment to putting more sophisticated shows on the field. If that means taking chances, take chances! When you've been at the bottom for a number of years, what is there to lose? I would strongly encourage them to lose the hat they have right now and return to the aussie look. A shako could even work with their current uniform if designed right. The hat just makes them look smaller, stature wise. It doesn't help with their visual presence on field, IMHO.

[1FMDMBD]

I can still remember the times he did that when we were in Texas.

Roman Sr. started that whistling years ago. It still annoys me to this day!! :) What a way to wake up!!