Stick Grip

[Slow Adam]

When I see someone playing the drums with their index finger sticking straight out because they have their fulcrum with the thumb and middle finger, I think they look like they were never taught the proper way to play the drums. Maybe for you, and others, it works okay. I've tried it and it doesn't work for me. I've been playing drums for 30 years, all with what I was taught, and consider correct, it's with the fulcrum at the thumb and index finger. I'm happy it works for you, not me. I was just looking for more information on the subject.

I was always taught the thumb-index fulcrum as well, but shifting the fulcrum back to the middle finger is by no means an incorrect technique, it's just different than the predominate drum corps approach. You will see A LOT of rock drummers using a shifted fulcrum.

One of my drum instructors marched Bridgemen's snare line in the early 1980's, and I would often see him let his index finger drop. I don't think anyone could argue the success achieved by Bridgemen. Different strokes (literally) for different folks I guess.

[drumkid]

Maybe if you weren't rambling incoherently someone could understand you. I was wondering if your original post was directed at me. (?) You got a problem with what I said? Yeah, I think it looks odd and awkward, that's my OPINION. When I see someone playing the drums with their index finger sticking straight out because they have their fulcrum with the thumb and middle finger, I think they look like they were never taught the proper way to play the drums. Maybe for you, and others, it works okay. I've tried it and it doesn't work for me. I've been playing drums for 30 years, all with what I was taught, and consider correct, it's with the fulcrum at the thumb and index finger. I'm happy it works for you, not me. I was just looking for more information on the subject.

My problem with what you said is that it reeks of myopia. I understand the difference between opinion and fact, and the only fact discernable from your post is that you don't understand middle finger fulcrum. I appreciate the idea that you may be looking for more information to train yourself, but your post reads like standoffish defensive posturing.

And yes, I did jump off the deep end rather hastily and for that I apologize.

However, when you make comments such as "I think they look like they were never taught the proper way to play drums", it appears to me that over your 30 years you were only ever taught ONE way to play drums. To me that is wrong.

Besides, you marched. You know how it works: they are playing that way because somebody is TEACHING them to play that way. Do you see the contradiction?

You really don't know how to manipulate your fulcrum? Really?

Also, you say "happy it works for you", like I am the only person that can play MFF, further adding to the divisiveness of your post.

All I'm asking is that you consider for a moment that there are other approaches to our craft and that they could be equally "right". What is this, religion?

good luck with your quest for knowledge,

DK

[drumkid]

I was always taught the thumb-index fulcrum as well, but shifting the fulcrum back to the middle finger is by no means an incorrect technique, it's just different than the predominate drum corps approach. You will see A LOT of rock drummers using a shifted fulcrum.

One of my drum instructors marched Bridgemen's snare line in the early 1980's, and I would often see him let his index finger drop. I don't think anyone could argue the success achieved by Bridgemen. Different strokes (literally) for different folks I guess.

Good call Adam.

Most drum corps drumming employed index FF because we need to freeze the stick at playing position after a downstroke. The best way to do that was to have as many fingers as possible behind the fulcrum to squeeze the back of the stick into the palm. Now that kids are better trained and DC instructors are coming from outside ranks we are seeing a greater variety in approach.

Seriously, check out jazz drummers wailing away "triple beat" on a ride cymbal.

dk

[sday88]

My problem with what you said is that it reeks of myopia. I understand the difference between opinion and fact, and the only fact discernable from your post is that you don't understand middle finger fulcrum. I appreciate the idea that you may be looking for more information to train yourself, but your post reads like standoffish defensive posturing.

And yes, I did jump off the deep end rather hastily and for that I apologize.

However, when you make comments such as "I think they look like they were never taught the proper way to play drums", it appears to me that over your 30 years you were only ever taught ONE way to play drums. To me that is wrong.

Besides, you marched. You know how it works: they are playing that way because somebody is TEACHING them to play that way. Do you see the contradiction?

You really don't know how to manipulate your fulcrum? Really?

Also, you say "happy it works for you", like I am the only person that can play MFF, further adding to the divisiveness of your post.

All I'm asking is that you consider for a moment that there are other approaches to our craft and that they could be equally "right". What is this, religion?

good luck with your quest for knowledge,

DK

I think you need to go back and read my original post again. I had never seen this grip prior to this past summer. I saw it in a Blue Devils video clip and questioned it in another post. I actually find it kinda odd that all of a sudden this grip is starting to be used. If it's "the next coming" why hasn't it been used up until now? So that is why I used the words "odd" and "awkward".

And yes, when I see a marching drummer playing with his index finger sticking straight out, it looks stupid and wrong to me. And yes you are correct when you say that a fact from my post is that I don't understand the middle finger fulcrum. THAT'S WHY I STARTED THE THREAD, TO GAIN UNDERSTANDING OF IT! And there you go ripping me a new one for wanting to gain knowledge, nice. Also, reread my last post. I didn't just say "you", I said "Maybe for you, and others, it works okay." I realize there are different approaches to our craft, and I never said any of them were "wrong", just odd & awkward LOOKING.

And yes, during my 30 years of playing drums I have only learned one way to play (sort of, I'll get to that later). I have had no reason or desire to learn any other techniques, aside from the fact that I didn't know this grip existed until this past summer. I started playing in the sixth grade. I did concert band until I graduated high school. I marched in high school and I marched three years of drum corps. I now pick up sticks and pad every once in a while. I have no need to learn new grips.

Now on to the "other" grip I was taught. In some "brilliant" move, our instructor my last year in corps decided he wanted us to use what he called a "concert" grip. It is where we pinched the stick using the "fingerprint" area of the thumb and index finger, rather than the thumb and the first knuckle of the index finger. And we had to have a visible gap between the thumb and index finger. This was very hard for me. After ten years of playing with a certain grip, he wants to change it. He was very hung up on the "gap" between the fingers. So what I ended up doing was using my standard grip and letting my thumb fall off slightly to open up the gap. That "concert" grip was the most ridiculous thing had ever been asked to do.

[Slow Adam]

Now on to the "other" grip I was taught. In some "brilliant" move, our instructor my last year in corps decided he wanted us to use what he called a "concert" grip. It is where we pinched the stick using the "fingerprint" area of the thumb and index finger, rather than the thumb and the first knuckle of the index finger. And we had to have a visible gap between the thumb and index finger. This was very hard for me. After ten years of playing with a certain grip, he wants to change it. He was very hung up on the "gap" between the fingers. So what I ended up doing was using my standard grip and letting my thumb fall off slightly to open up the gap. That "concert" grip was the most ridiculous thing had ever been asked to do.

The "gap" is the number one grip issue I bust kids for when I teach. I'll agree 100% with that.

"Concert" grip is meant for just that - delicate orchestral snare playing, and for it's element there is nothing wrong with it. Props to the guys that play that stuff, I know I can't do it with the same quality of sound. But, when the need arises for power, the orchestral guys choke down on their sticks like corps drummers.

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

Now that kids are better trained and DC instructors are coming from outside ranks we are seeing a greater variety in approach.

Wow.... way to diss the people who shaped the activity.

I don't think 'kids are better trained' now-perhaps they are trained differently-partly due to changes in equipment (mylar vs. kevlar, etc.,) Fred Sanford, Dennis DeLucia, Charley Poole, and a lot of others taught the index finger-fulcrum grip and it (and they) produced some fantastic lines. I don't disagree that there are also some great lines today. So I won't get into this ahistorical "who's better 2008 Cadets vs. 83 Bridgemen..." debate. But I do think you have to keep history in mind when discussing playing styles. In those days, one of the key differences between drum corps and high school band was that drum corps lines played with uniform style, while high school bands commonly played in more individualistic fashion. That was the lay of the land. I can remember seeing people playing with pinkys flying off the end of their sticks, lines with stick heights over their heads and not any semblence of uniformity. The end result was rarely very musical. Again-this was not drum corps and our uniformity (not to mention musicality) was one of the things that seperated drum corps from other marching music activity. This was not pre-history either-maybe 20 years ago or so.

BTW: I noted (last page) that I had used the middle finger/fulcrum grip at one point. When I think about it, i had actually been taught that grip by a kid who marched in North Star's Chrome Wall, Rob Spicher. He spent a lot of time with me in my formative drumming days, and I now recall us playing with this grip just for the hell of it (not very seriously) when drumming for fun. So those ideas were out there and we messed around with it when hacking, but personally it always felt awkward to me. This doesn't make me-or my generation ignorant-or less musical players. I did learn to play effectively with that grip (keeping the index finger ON the stick, so it's a variation from what Scott described). But the upshot is that although it worked, and apparently others knew about it, that grip did not bring about the results that we desired. It certainly had/has no advantages in my opinion.

[drumkid]

Wow.... way to diss the people who shaped the activity.

First let me say I'll take 83 Bridgeman over 2008 Cadets.

Second, let me apologize if it seemed like a dis. Allow me to clarify.

I am not talking about the actual instructing going on at the corps level in general. I am referring to the level of student coming in to audition and this has everything to do with those whom have already donned a uniform. I am saying because of dc's past the bar has been raised. People received quality training in drum corps then went home and taught others what they learned. My MS/HS drum instructors marched SCV & VK. I learned so much more from them than I learned from my band directors. The knowledge base and talent pool are ever-increasing.

It should be taken as a compliment that the activity has been pushed to this level.

cheers,

DK

[sday88]

So let me ask this now. When using the thumb/index fulcrum, you have the two fingers right across from each other with the middle finger (obviously) back a little further. When you switch to the thumb/middle fulcrum do you leave the middle finger where it's at or move it forward to be across from the thumb? Or do you move the thumb back to be across from the middle? If you move the middle up, then aren't you now still gripping the stick in the same location, but now using a different finger?

[jbdrummin]

So let me ask this now. When using the thumb/index fulcrum, you have the two fingers right across from each other with the middle finger (obviously) back a little further. When you switch to the thumb/middle fulcrum do you leave the middle finger where it's at or move it forward to be across from the thumb? Or do you move the thumb back to be across from the middle? If you move the middle up, then aren't you now still gripping the stick in the same location, but now using a different finger?

When I switch from 1st to 2nd fulcrum the only finger I move is my index finger. I end up relaxing it and putting more pressure on my middle finger.

[sday88]

When I switch from 1st to 2nd fulcrum the only finger I move is my index finger. I end up relaxing it and putting more pressure on my middle finger.

But doesn't that now put the two contact points about an inch or so apart? I guess I'm not really understanding. Doesn't the fulcrum (pinch) point need to be right at the same point on the stick?