hazing/misconduct

[DCI-86]

I had a student who travelled overseas to audition for one of the top Independent World winterguards.  He said for the entire weekend, no one really made an effort to talk to him - neither members or staff.

Although this person is insanely talented, he was not offered a spot.  On reflection, he felt they already knew the members they wanted and just wanted others to audition to make money.  Whilst I am sure this is true and happens elsewhere, it is pretty brutal to get them to fly across the ocean, pay their audition fees,  learn nothing and speak to no one!  

 

As you might imagine, mine and my student's respect for this organisation is pretty low!

Edited July 25, 2018 by DCI-86

[Eleran]

16 minutes ago, DCI-86 said:

On reflection, he felt they already knew the members they wanted and just wanted others to audition to make money.  

Long time practice in the sporting world, which is why I refused to charge for tryouts when I ran a club.

[BoyWonder1911]

I wonder how often this is true.

 

Many top corps have just a certain number of age outs. Say for example 30. So the next auditioning camp some will say "they only have 30 spots open". This is also what I heard at PR's audition camp when I went in 2002.

As far as I knew, every spot was/is open. Except maybe DM.

 

I wonder how often a member is unsuccessful for re-audition. I can see how some members might become hostile and jealous toward a new member who took the spot of a friend.

I'd like to know more about this. 

Like someone said, you got 150+ 16-21yos all.living together for 12 weeks. What could go wrong???

Stuff is going to happen and there is not one thing staff can do about it. And if members feel stifled at one corps, they'll go to another. 

You have to attract and keep members in order for the organization to thrive. It's highly competitive in that regard. If you do x, you'll lose members. If you do the opposite, you'll lose members. 

Have to balance the act. And there will ALWAYS be those with thinner skin that just won't be able to handle the emotional demands of touring. 

It's not fair that one member comes forward 5+ years later with all these allegations and no way to verify everything or anything. How do you respond to that?? It's all hearsay. Not trying marginalize the OP of that Reddit thread but the OP goes on to say that 99% of the corps is perfect. Just not his experience and that nobody should affect their decision on what he said

 Well why the hell not? If your experience was as bad as you say, then why would you NOT want to dissway people? Says a whole bunch of stuff then says the complete opposite.

Maybe the member just wanted to get it off his chest. If that's true, then why not go a little further and analyze your own behavior and try to see if maybe you acted a certain way that triggered certain people to become abusive? NOT blaming the victim. But there were times during my adolescent years where I acted out against "the bad kids" and blamed them for bullying me, when in retrospect my own behavior kind of led into it. 

Kids (even 21) are kids and haven't fully learned to have healthy productive relationships with others and the kind of environment touring brings with it is not ideal for that. 

Corps do not want to become babysitters.

But the leadership of a group can foster a mature environment by setting a great example.

Kids need great examples and corp leadership has to recognize this, especially in an age where our culture is seemingly fostering this idea that feelings matter a whole lot more than they did. "Get over it" or "suck it up" is no longer the proper or constructive response. 

[BlueStainGlass]

20 minutes ago, BoyWonder1911 said:

I wonder how often this is true.

 

Many top corps have just a certain number of age outs. Say for example 30. So the next auditioning camp some will say "they only have 30 spots open". This is also what I heard at PR's audition camp when I went in 2002.

As far as I knew, every spot was/is open. Except maybe DM.

 

I wonder how often a member is unsuccessful for re-audition. I can see how some members might become hostile and jealous toward a new member who took the spot of a friend.

I'd like to know more about this. 

Like someone said, you got 150+ 16-21yos all.living together for 12 weeks. What could go wrong???

Stuff is going to happen and there is not one thing staff can do about it. And if members feel stifled at one corps, they'll go to another. 

You have to attract and keep members in order for the organization to thrive. It's highly competitive in that regard. If you do x, you'll lose members. If you do the opposite, you'll lose members. 

Have to balance the act. And there will ALWAYS be those with thinner skin that just won't be able to handle the emotional demands of touring. 

It's not fair that one member comes forward 5+ years later with all these allegations and no way to verify everything or anything. How do you respond to that?? It's all hearsay. Not trying marginalize the OP of that Reddit thread but the OP goes on to say that 99% of the corps is perfect. Just not his experience and that nobody should affect their decision on what he said

 Well why the hell not? If your experience was as bad as you say, then why would you NOT want to dissway people? Says a whole bunch of stuff then says the complete opposite.

Maybe the member just wanted to get it off his chest. If that's true, then why not go a little further and analyze your own behavior and try to see if maybe you acted a certain way that triggered certain people to become abusive? NOT blaming the victim. But there were times during my adolescent years where I acted out against "the bad kids" and blamed them for bullying me, when in retrospect my own behavior kind of led into it. 

Kids (even 21) are kids and haven't fully learned to have healthy productive relationships with others and the kind of environment touring brings with it is not ideal for that. 

Corps do not want to become babysitters.

But the leadership of a group can foster a mature environment by setting a great example.

Kids need great examples and corp leadership has to recognize this, especially in an age where our culture is seemingly fostering this idea that feelings matter a whole lot more than they did. "Get over it" or "suck it up" is no longer the proper or constructive response. 

As someone said a poster responded to the events in the OP where many of them where caused for other reasons. People started bashing the response and downvoting saying victimizing the user. I know who the person is and I know the stories of some things left out of the OP/response post. I can 100% confirm that there were people that did talk to this person and its a slap in the face to those that did try and help. This does lead to what some people outside of DCP have mentioned that people with mental health issues do need someone during tour. Maybe that's the next move is to have all corps to hire someone that is certified to help. There are many members past and present that have these problems and when you are being pushed your limits can struggle. I had a friend that had severe depression when they marched and it was a buddy system to make sure they were ok and they weren't 100% of the time. I checked the OP today and there have been edits added. 

 

Now the audition process is different for everyone. Some people havhave posted here about amazing/terrible vibes at auditions. I auditioned for a top group to be unnamed and had a terrible experience of vet groups trash talking/avoiding. Someone else posted on the reddit thread on going to the place and it was amazing.  So I think it's unfair to goaround saying dont audition or the vibe is terrible think elsewhere. I have sent students to auditions and they have gone back because of their experience. 

 

Finally, those staff members were let go after that season and have not taught ANYWHERE since. 

[ouooga]

1 hour ago, DCI-86 said:

I had a student who travelled overseas to audition for one of the top Independent World winterguards.  He said for the entire weekend, no one really made an effort to talk to him - neither members or staff.

Although this person is insanely talented, he was not offered a spot.  On reflection, he felt they already knew the members they wanted and just wanted others to audition to make money.  Whilst I am sure this is true and happens elsewhere, it is pretty brutal to get them to fly across the ocean, pay their audition fees,  learn nothing and speak to no one!  

 

As you might imagine, mine and my student's respect for this organisation is pretty low!

 

I'm not saying your student didn't try to talk to them too, but could it be possible the staff was waiting for him to open up?

 

I'm big into organizational psychology, and something big in that industry and the hiring process at most companies is culture matching. Businesses give current employees a personality test, and as part of the hiring process, applicants must take the same personality test. They're looking for people that will 'jive' well with the rest of the team, not just the most qualified in general.

 

I say this because there's a parallel that might really benefit drum corps. Like your student, there's an actual chance they wanted him to integrate himself (ie make the same jokes, listen when everyone listens, talk when everyone talks, etc.) and that's part of their evaluation process. But more specifically to drum corps, a lot of what we're talking about here is a difference in how members want to be treated/treat each other, how they want to receive feedback, how they want to practice in terms of intensity, etc. A culture-testing program as part of the audition process, or maybe even a universal DCI one that everyone fills out before they audition anywhere, would be a cool thing to implement.

[BlueStainGlass]

@tedrick I forgot to mention that they run a brat stand and perform at the LaCrosse Oktoberfest parade. 

[tedrick]

5 minutes ago, BlueStainGlass said:

@tedrick I forgot to mention that they run a brat stand and perform at the LaCrosse Oktoberfest parade. 

yeah yeah...

it's not the same though...
<dino>

I'm sure many who marched in the previous century can relate - there was a time when corps were made of approximately 50% local members - so camps, practices, everything was a matter of driving 10 minutes down to the location, the Octoberfest grounds during the summer, Logan middle school in the winter... you lived in town, people knew about the organization...

I'm resigned to the new drum corps, the change - I get it -- the cheese has been moved

</dino>

[DCI-86]

27 minutes ago, ouooga said:

 

I'm not saying your student didn't try to talk to them too, but could it be possible the staff was waiting for him to open up?

 

I'm big into organizational psychology, and something big in that industry and the hiring process at most companies is culture matching. Businesses give current employees a personality test, and as part of the hiring process, applicants must take the same personality test. They're looking for people that will 'jive' well with the rest of the team, not just the most qualified in general.

 

I say this because there's a parallel that might really benefit drum corps. Like your student, there's an actual chance they wanted him to integrate himself (ie make the same jokes, listen when everyone listens, talk when everyone talks, etc.) and that's part of their evaluation process. But more specifically to drum corps, a lot of what we're talking about here is a difference in how members want to be treated/treat each other, how they want to receive feedback, how they want to practice in terms of intensity, etc. A culture-testing program as part of the audition process, or maybe even a universal DCI one that everyone fills out before they audition anywhere, would be a cool thing to implement.

I agree, and knowing this gregarious person, he absolutely would have tried to talk to others but when you are in a foreign country and in a foreign environment then you would hope the host organisation would go out of their way to make them feel welcome and comfortable, partner them up with someone etc etc.  Instead, from what I understand, the vets kept to themselves and the kids from other DCs who knew each other kept themselves to themselves and the others were left alone by both the members and staff.  The audition process was not only not a good experience but this person also learned nothing (expect don't audition for this group again!).

I should say this story has a happy ending.  This person went on to march a top 8 IW guard and be their featured soloist!

Edited July 25, 2018 by DCI-86

[BoyWonder1911]

1 minute ago, DCI-86 said:

I agree, and knowing this gregarious person, he absolutely would have tried to talk to others but when you are in a foreign country and in a foreign environment then you would hope the host organisation would go out of their way to make them feel welcome and comfortable, partner them up with someone etc etc.  Instead, from what I understand, the vets kept to themselves and the kids from other DCs who knew each other kept themselves to themselves and the others were left alone by both the members and staff.  The audition process was not only not a good experience but this person also learned nothing (expect don't audition for this group again!).

It seems obvious to me that an audition camp is more than just trying out for a spot, but should be more like an educational clinic. A good educator would run their audition as such.

 

I mentioned I tried out for regiment back in Nov 2002. My sister also came with me to audition for guard. She was relatively inexperienced and didn't expect to nab a spot, but her experience was a bit better than mine. Coming from a marching band that did not compete or put out a competitive product, there was a lot to learn, and her experience with guard tryouts was more like a clinic and she did learn a ton and did have some positive contact with other members and felt somewhat included. 

My experience with regiment brass was different. There were a lot more auditonees. I am introverted and didn't talk to anyone. The sound in that gym was huge though. Wow. 

They went on to take 4th that year with Harmonic Journey. What a show that was.

I remember one baritone kid, young, maybe 16, was phenomenal and wasn't offered a spot. He was told to call Colts as was I. There's more to do with it than how good of a player or marcher you are. 

Everyone has different experiences. My experience was somewhat less than positive, and my sister's experience was somewhat positive, at the same corps on the same weekend.

It all depends on the person and what the corps is looking for. Obviously Regiment was ready to compete for a medal and was selecting new members as if they were. Being a rookout would have been incredibly difficult to be offered a spot. 

[MikeN]

2 hours ago, Terri Schehr said:

I admire your confidence in these corps policing themselves.  I’m sorry to say that I don’t share that confidence. 

Do they even check those online whistleblower forms? 

Ours does.  It goes to me, among others.

Mike