HardCorp Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I believe Hopkins would be flattered o be characterized as the single handed reason that drum corps has evolved, but it is incorrect. Check out how many times electronics were strongly supported by the Blue Devils. Check out how many times Hopkins proposals were shot down. Far from the Voice of God. More like the Voice of Progress - often ignored, eventually accepted. How many corps folded when they couldnt pay the bill for those brand new Bb horns? Well, none. I can think of numerous small corps that have popped up since the advent of B flat usage that claim it was much easier to get of the ground when borrowing horns from various schools and member owned instruments. How many corps folded when Div 3 was dissolved and they couldnt meet the touring and competition requirements to run with the big corps? It has been all of 1 season since Div 2 & Dv 3 were folded into 1 class. The tour last season was the same as it was when there were 2 classes. Sorry to let facts creep up into this volatile argument. I feel left out:-) So, why are you such a bad guy Tom? Obviously someone so evil would not care to take the time to speak to us underlings. As far as George Hopkins, I do not know him as a person. He's probably a great guy and if I ever run into him, I'd be hoppy to buy him a beer. I just don't like how one person can simply say "lets do this" in regards to sweeping changes to the drum corps activity, and how everyone considers his word to be as powerful as the voice of God. He has implemented 3 valve horns, Bb horns, electronic amplification, vocal narration, and now synthesizers. He was the person who had proposed the ideas behind increasing corps size limits from 128 to 150, and I'm scared that adding woodwinds could come soon. I am a bit of a traditionalist. I believe that maintaining traditions and foundations keeps things focused towards the reasons why they exist. George Hopkins has been the antagonist of the demise of many of the things that make drum and bugle corps...drum and bugle corps. I also don't care for the "Hopkins innovations" because every single innovation they introduce means a greater financial burden on competing corps. How many corps folded when they couldnt pay the bill for those brand new Bb horns? How many corps folded when Div 3 was dissolved and they couldnt meet the touring and competition requirements to run with the big corps? I honor Mr. Hopkins service as the 26 year director of the Cadets. I have enjoyed many of the Cadet's shows. I also have seen the performance enhancements created by all of these innovations. I just know that some of the most beautiful, most exhilarating drum corps performances of all time were performed with 2 valved G bugles, without electronic amplification or other similar equipment, and I know that instructors would still be able to teach innovative and exciting programs if they still had to deal with traditional equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 As far as George Hopkins, I do not know him as a person. He's probably a great guy and if I ever run into him, I'd be hoppy to buy him a beer. I just don't like how one person can simply say "lets do this" in regards to sweeping changes to the drum corps activity, and how everyone considers his word to be as powerful as the voice of God. He has implemented 3 valve horns, Bb horns, electronic amplification, vocal narration, and now synthesizers. What rule has Hoppy implemented all by himself? I can't think of any. He can't. The things you note are changes that had been desired by the instructor's caucus for years before they were approved by the voting body. Some were voted down many times by the BOD before finally being passed. Actually, I do not think that all of the items you noted were even Hoppy's proposals. He was the person who had proposed the ideas behind increasing corps size limits from 128 to 150, and I'm scared that adding woodwinds could come soon. Doubtful, since there is no hue and cry inside DCI for that. As for the 150 limit..that makes sense logistically given the increased seating in busses today. I am a bit of a traditionalist. I believe that maintaining traditions and foundations keeps things focused towards the reasons why they exist. George Hopkins has been the antagonist of the demise of many of the things that make drum and bugle corps...drum and bugle corps. No, actually has has not, IMO. DC is still full of tradition and continues to build on the foundations from decades ago. I also don't care for the "Hopkins innovations" because every single innovation they introduce means a greater financial burden on competing corps. How many corps folded when they couldnt pay the bill for those brand new Bb horns? Can you name one? I can't. IMO the answer is...none. Yes, corps fail, but NO, when they do it's not due to the existence of Bb/F horns. How many corps folded when Div 3 was dissolved and they couldnt meet the touring and competition requirements to run with the big corps? As I do not know of any, can you come up with some where this is the reason for one or more corps failures? Again, corps fail all the time...but I have not seen where this has been the issue. Most of the recent failures have been painfully analyzed here in DCP, so there is at least anecdotal evidence about the ones that have failed. I honor Mr. Hopkins service as the 26 year director of the Cadets. I have enjoyed many of the Cadet's shows. I also have seen the performance enhancements created by all of these innovations. I just know that some of the most beautiful, most exhilarating drum corps performances of all time were performed with 2 valved G bugles, without electronic amplification or other similar equipment, and I know that instructors would still be able to teach innovative and exciting programs if they still had to deal with traditional equipment. Sorry, but 3-valved horns in any key ARE the traditional equipment in 2009, as is electronic amplification. Instructors use the tool available to them. In that area you are right...there have been many incredible shows written in EVERY era. Some of my favorite shows were written without even marching timpani or mallets, let alone a pit, for instance...heck, on single valve horns, with rotaries instead of second valves. So what? Other of my favorite shows use amplification and micced vocals. And many in between...the point is that drum corps has been an ever-evolving activity since long before DCI came along, and I hope it continues. That IS part of the tradition and foundation of drum corps. IMO, anyway, since I started in 1964. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Can you name one? I can't. IMO the answer is...none. Yes, corps fail, but NO, when they do it's not due to the existence of Bb/F horns. So if you can't prove causality, then it's OK. I see. Go ahead and raise costs as much as you want. When a corps folds, no one will be able to prove whether it was the Bb/F horns, or the electronics, or the expanded touring....or "bad management". Yeah, that's it. If a corps can't keep up with escalating costs, that's their own fault. Anyone willing to acknowledge that increasing costs are a problem? There isn't much point to having a discussion....well, what "discussion" can there be if we can't even agree that escalating costs are a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 How many corps folded when they couldnt pay the bill for those brand new Bb horns? Well, none. I can think of numerous small corps that have popped up since the advent of B flat usage that claim it was much easier to get of the ground when borrowing horns from various schools and member owned instruments. Name some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Name some. Off the top of my heard... Esperanza Incognito En Garde would have Gold Also numerous groups suddenly found available G bugles when corps switched over...SoCal Dream, for one. The Bb switch DID result in a lot of Gs on the market, and allowed the legitimate possibility of a drum corps forming out of a school group...percussion was always alot easier to get hold of than a line of G horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Also numerous groups suddenly found available G bugles when corps switched over...SoCal Dream, for one.The Bb switch DID result in a lot of Gs on the market, and allowed the legitimate possibility of a drum corps forming out of a school group...percussion was always alot easier to get hold of than a line of G horns. The used G market was hit pretty hard by the Alumni type groups that were starting up during the time also. But now the market is pretty dry and the few and far between Gs that are on eBay and other locations are pricey. The corps that are using Gs today are treating those horns with kid gloves if their budget isn't huge. If starting a group today, I'd say go with used Bb or find someone with real deep pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The used G market was hit pretty hard by the Alumni type groups that were starting up during the time also. But now the market is pretty dry and the few and far between Gs that are on eBay and other locations are pricey. The corps that are using Gs today are treating those horns with kid gloves if their budget isn't huge. If starting a group today, I'd say go with used Bb or find someone with real deep pockets. Well yes, of course...it was a perfect storm of start up corps and sudden availability of instruments...anyone with half a brain would know it would be a short term thing...but look at how many groups of all types had the opportunity to start up if they wanted to be in G. With both major bodies adopting any key brass, it's still a HELL of a lot easier to get a brass line together than it was before 2000. About the only way a significant amount of Gs is going to hit the market would be if VK and Kilties switch over, since I believe those horns are owned by the corps. if Renegades or Dream folded, you wouldn't see QUITE the same influx of gear, since a lot of those horns are member owned. In the end, if there has been ANY ruling in the last 2 decades that has helped the OVERALL activity, it was the adoption of any-key brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 SnipAbout the only way a significant amount of Gs is going to hit the market would be if VK and Kilties switch over, since I believe those horns are owned by the corps. if Renegades or Dream folded, you wouldn't see QUITE the same influx of gear, since a lot of those horns are member owned. Snip Sorry, we are on Bb's. The closest thing to a G we have in the line is the F Mells!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Sorry, we are on Bb's.The closest thing to a G we have in the line is the F Mells!! Opps...my bad! I thought you guys bought a line of Gs when the corps came out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) Well yes, of course...it was a perfect storm of start up corps and sudden availability of instruments...anyone with half a brain would know it would be a short term thing...but look at how many groups of all types had the opportunity to start up if they wanted to be in G. Sorry Sam wasn't trying to slam you. Just letting people in on the current status of getting G horns in case they didn't know. Only reason I know is I'm in a G horn line with less than deep pockets. Corps spent lot of time, effort, money and brain cells trying to get matched horns (same manufacturer IOW) and did it just before the market bottomed out. Cost of replacement is getting more and more "Oh ####" with each passing year so corps have to really baby those horns. Strange thing is the corps who started during that time might have saved by buying Gs from corps that went to Bb. Now they might be kicking themselves because of current replacement cost. PS - Thanks for the info on who owns the horns on the West Coast and Racine. Always good to know in case someone switches or we need some horns (think 'gades use the same manufacturer). Edited May 6, 2009 by JimF-3rdBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.