supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) I finally turned down the volume and listened to Crowns show on the Beverly, MA VOD. And what did I hear? Lead Sops octaving the mello runs and rips? mmmhmmm 2 and 1/2 Octave bari parts for open chord voicing? mmmhmmm Full hornline mid register hits? lushhhhhhhhhhhhhh Exposed lead sop/trumpet lead parts in the upper register? mmmhmmmm Keeping melody in the lead sop upper register rather than playing a lower harmony? YUP! Bari's leading the way with moving parts on hit cadences? yummmmmmmmm Lots of Open 5ths and neopolitans? rawrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ___________________________________________________________ So who does this all remind me of? Many from the 80's but mostly Star. Who else? Garfield ......... and Avant Garde. I really wonder how much influence Donnie VanDoren has had in Michael Klesch .. or vice versa. Notice any other old school methods he is using? Please feel free to point them out. If you don't have access to APD's or VOD's .... get them. Please keep discussion to arranging methods and differences between methods used today vs. yesteryear. ________________________________________________________________________________ _____ AND someone help me out with some Klesch / VanDoren history. How long have they been hooked up and how far back? I know they have been on staff a bunch together. I know about DM in 83 Garfield and then on to Star. What else did I miss before computers connected to duh intrawebz? Edited July 8, 2009 by supersop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFr3aK Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Well, I know that Klesch marched for the Cadets, and after aging out WROTE for them. He has an amazing knowledge of how to make a horn line sound great. Having the oportunity to grow my own knowledge of arranging through his instruction is just amazing. I joined the activity so that I could become a better teacher, and having him there to add to what I already learned is just the icing on the cake! The open 5ths and neopolitans are used all over drum corps! But the way he incorporates them into the music is very well done. Along with how he makes the upper voicing and bari parts lead into major impact points is one of my favorite parts of his music. He has a very 'old school' approach to his writing and instructing, but none the less keeps it fresh and new! I don't know why he has yet to be inducted into the DCI Hall of Fame! I feel it will happen soon! He's a great asset to the Crown staff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmonious Cacophony Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Lots of unisons/octaves, especially with the low brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I finally turned down the volume and listened to Crowns show on the Beverly, MA VOD. And what did I hear?Lead Sops octaving the mello runs and rips? mmmhmmm 2 and 1/2 Octave bari parts for open chord voicing? mmmhmmm Full hornline mid register hits? lushhhhhhhhhhhhhh Exposed lead sop/trumpet lead parts in the upper register? mmmhmmmm Keeping melody in the lead sop upper register rather than playing a lower harmony? YUP! Bari's leading the way with moving parts on hit cadences? yummmmmmmmm Lots of Open 5ths and neopolitans? rawrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ___________________________________________________________ So who does this all remind me of? Many from the 80's but mostly Star. Who else? Garfield ......... and Avant Garde. I really wonder how much influence Donnie VanDoren has had in Michael Klesch .. or vice versa. Notice any other old school methods he is using? Please feel free to point them out. If you don't have access to APD's or VOD's .... get them. Please keep discussion to arranging methods and differences between methods used today vs. yesteryear. ________________________________________________________________________________ _____ AND someone help me out with some Klesch / VanDoren history. How long have they been hooked up and how far back? I know they have been on staff a bunch together. I know about DM in 83 Garfield and then on to Star. What else did I miss before computers connected to duh intrawebz? Nice, nice topic! Thanks for that! Wouldn't the arranging influence situation be more one between Jim Prime Jr. & Klesch? I'm sure Van Doren is the technique guy 'breathe dah' and Prime was the arranger at least Star '88+. Did Van Doren also help arrange? Didn't Jim Prime also arrange for Troopers and Cadets ( Troopers '85, Cadets some years in '80s)? I'm only sure about Star since I lived at bit of that and heard the history first hand. ...and yea, I've noticed a LOT of similarities between Klesch's arranging and Star's arrangements the Prime/Van Doren years in particular. Help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Well, I know that Klesch marched for the Cadets, and after aging out WROTE for them. He has an amazing knowledge of how to make a horn line sound great. Having the oportunity to grow my own knowledge of arranging through his instruction is just amazing. I joined the activity so that I could become a better teacher, and having him there to add to what I already learned is just the icing on the cake!The open 5ths and neopolitans are used all over drum corps! But the way he incorporates them into the music is very well done. Along with how he makes the upper voicing and bari parts lead into major impact points is one of my favorite parts of his music. He has a very 'old school' approach to his writing and instructing, but none the less keeps it fresh and new! I don't know why he has yet to be inducted into the DCI Hall of Fame! I feel it will happen soon! He's a great asset to the Crown staff! Agreed, agreed and agreed. It's not what he uses, it's how and when he uses it. It's pretty similar to how J.D. Shaw writes and I'm pretty certain he's heavily influenced by what he heard and studied in 80's drum corps. I know Michael was DM for Garfield in 83 and then went on to write, but what's Donnie's history? I thought for certain he was with Garfield and then Star but I can't find a bio for him anywhere. I do recall that some of the Avant Garde instructors came over to Star in 85 along with quite a bit of their hornline. Was Donny part of that deal? Or am I totally totally wrong? I think what really struck me was the mid range full hit. Star 88 immediately came to mind during the "Storm" portion of Porgy and Bess. The mello lead sop octaving reminds me of the runs in Jeremiah Symphony during Garfield '85 show opener .. and also Avante Garde from 1984. Anyway ... Michaels' style of arranging is very old school and music to my ears. It's obvious he takes great care in applying formula of arranging at strategic points throughout the show. It's a clear signature and one that most arrangers had 20 years ago. Not so much now. Even Wayne Downey has departed from having a single set style through the years. I'm speaking of how things are voiced and certain chord progressions used for effect during the Jazz Years that were trademark Downey. Then they started messing with Meehaphones and that changed some things. Now most of his work feels very top heavy and thin on the bari end. I started noticing this in 1992 and it has remained the same ever since. All in all, I know people like Crowns book .. but I don't think they really get how exposed an difficult it is to achieve the sound Michael had in his head when he wrote the book. I'm still grinding my teeth at the lead sops and mello's in parts of the show, but I know it will come. I suspect that is Donnie's end of the bargain? It always seemed that way to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Nice, nice topic! Thanks for that!Wouldn't the arranging influence situation be more one between Jim Prime Jr. & Klesch? I'm sure Van Doren is the technique guy 'breathe dah' and Prime was the arranger at least Star '88+. Did Van Doren also help arrange? Didn't Jim Prime also arrange for Troopers and Cadets ( Troopers '85, Cadets some years in '80s)? I'm only sure about Star since I lived at bit of that and heard the history first hand. ...and yea, I've noticed a LOT of similarities between Klesch's arranging and Star's arrangements the Prime/Van Doren years in particular. Help! Awesome, I totally forgot that it was the Prime connection. Totally makes sense now. So Prime and Klesch are the machines and VanDoren is the grease? In all honesty, I don't think either arrangers work would be what it is without Mr. VanDoren. It's one thing to write it .. it's another thing to teach what the arranger wants to hear .. to know what's important at any given second and how to tune chordal structures constantly. To me, that's a VanDoren thing. Reminds me alot of Frank Williams (the master). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The fact that we can even have a discussion like this is a testament to the emphasis the organization places on musicality. Could you imagine having a discussion about how the Crossmen arranger can so "innovatively" bash the audience over the head repeatedly with the same one or two motifs from Medea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Awesome, I totally forgot that it was the Prime connection. Totally makes sense now. So Prime and Klesch are the machines and VanDoren is the grease?In all honesty, I don't think either arrangers work would be what it is without Mr. VanDoren. It's one thing to write it .. it's another thing to teach what the arranger wants to hear .. to know what's important at any given second and how to tune chordal structures constantly. To me, that's a VanDoren thing. Reminds me alot of Frank Williams (the master). So true! Mr. VanDoren would constantly tell his lines to listen to the chordal structure and the overtones while they played, but I know Mr. Prime was also around tweeking away at arrangements too. Definitely, it was a symbiotic relationship. I would love to see if Crown run things the same way. Also, I wonder if the Cadets ran that way '83-'85. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 The fact that we can even have a discussion like this is a testament to the emphasis the organization places on musicality. Could you imagine having a discussion about how the Crossmen arranger can so "innovatively" bash the audience over the head repeatedly with the same one or two motifs from Medea? I'll disregard the bash on Crossmen and take your statement to mean that todays arrangers are motif driven and not phrase/melody driven? Let's keep it clean if we can please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) I'll disregard the bash on Crossmen and take your statement to mean that todays arrangers are motif driven and not phrase/melody driven?Let's keep it clean if we can please. Nothing against the Crossmen...just their arranger. Motif-driven isn't the right word, more like, "original compsosition based on a few motifs from a piece to support the show theme" (Crossmen) versus "the piece" (Crown). Edited July 8, 2009 by Hrothgar15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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