supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 So true! Mr. VanDoren would constantly tell his lines to listen to the chordal structure and the overtones while they played, but I know Mr. Prime was also around tweeking away at arrangements too.Definitely, it was a symbiotic relationship. I would love to see if Crown run things the same way. Also, I wonder if the Cadets ran that way '83-'85. On the first part, I wonder how much time he is spending with Crown now that he's involved with Blue Stars? Second part, the 83-85 Garfield hornlines were master technicians. I remember hearing the stories when I marched there in 90 from Shorty Bartholemew. Shorty was definitely the technical kinda of guy. Slam the fingers, breathe dah, everyone plays, hammer hammer hammer. But Frank Williams was the "LISTEN" guy. I would say the 3pete years were very technical hornlines but not necessarily musical at "all times". But they did have some moments. I think the formula has changed over the years but there are still some fundamentals. Breathe dah, everyone plays, fast fingers, overtones on every note. The one thing I think Garfield was missing at times (back then) was tone quality. That was sometimes sacrificed for executing precision. That also gave them a unique sound for the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFr3aK Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I know that Matt Harloff has taken much from what he was taught by DVD and Jim Prime, so I'm pretty sure the structure is quite similar! Donnie doesn't really have as big of a direct affect on the horn line as much as he did, but I remember the first time we did a run through in front of Donnie andhe was standing on the front side line, I had never been more scared for my life! I think that was the best run I ever did of the show up to that point! It's pretty insane really, because Donnie put his heart into the horn line Matt Harloff was in, and now (well up until last year) Matt is pouring his heart into the line that EVD (Donnies son) marched in, and now is on staff! Last year at our end of the year banquet, it was so special to see the relationships built with all of those people! I know that this organization is going to stand the test of time! I can't wait to see how far those guys can push this drum corps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Nothing against the Crossmen...just their arranger. Motif-driven isn't the right word, more like, "original compsosition based on a few motifs from a piece to support the show theme" (Crossmen) versus "the piece" (Crown). It's really hard to say exactly when that kind of thing started. There have been certain corps who are more well known for motif driven arranging. Cavies have done well with it. BD has done it quite a bit. The thing that concerns me now is the motif blending from seperate tunes to make one tune. It used to fine to do this for one piece in your show back in the day. It made things interesting and showed off some compositional and arranging skill. Bluecoats were really good at this when I marched. However, it seems to be done for just about every tune in most corps shows these days - example this years HNC. I kinda get the feeling this was brought on by judging. There used to be an unwritten rule in the 80's that you needed a mood/feel change about every 30 seconds in order to keep things flowing. I think that rule has been adjusted to over time and has now resulted in this "hack and slash" style of arranging. (yes that's what I like to call it). Some corps are staying away from it because they've selected great musical literature to use in their shows this year (Vanguard - PR - Crown come to mind). I still scratch my head wondering why HNC felt the need to use so much of WSS this year. The previous 2 offerings stayed pretty true to the original works other than the Latin flavor in the percussion from 1994. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 On the first part, I wonder how much time he is spending with Crown now that he's involved with Blue Stars?Second part, the 83-85 Garfield hornlines were master technicians. I remember hearing the stories when I marched there in 90 from Shorty Bartholemew. Shorty was definitely the technical kinda of guy. Slam the fingers, breathe dah, everyone plays, hammer hammer hammer. But Frank Williams was the "LISTEN" guy. I would say the 3pete years were very technical hornlines but not necessarily musical at "all times". But they did have some moments. I think the formula has changed over the years but there are still some fundamentals. Breathe dah, everyone plays, fast fingers, overtones on every note. The one thing I think Garfield was missing at times (back then) was tone quality. That was sometimes sacrificed for executing precision. That also gave them a unique sound for the time. I wonder if Mr. VanDoren has to spend a lot of time with Crown at this point. Has his kid aged out yet? Crown has staff who have "grown" up under his system and maybe they "have it down" completely by now... Maybe Blue Stars is his next project to push up to top 5 brass program status??? I mean, it sounds like it to me! Yea, I know Shorty Bartholemew. He was also involved with Star... At least in '89... ( Crossmen later) You're right, Shorty was more technical, while Donnie was more the "LISTEN" guy. Hmmm, you've hit on some interesting stuff here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 I wonder if Mr. VanDoren has to spend a lot of time with Crown at this point. Has his kid aged out yet? Crown has staff who have "grown" up under his system and maybe they "have it down" completely by now... Maybe Blue Stars is his next project to push up to top 5 brass program status??? I mean, it sounds like it to me!Yea, I know Shorty Bartholemew. He was also involved with Star... At least in '89... ( Crossmen later) You're right, Shorty was more technical, while Donnie was more the "LISTEN" guy. Hmmm, you've hit on some interesting stuff here. FYI, Shorty has been heavily involved with Jersey Surf for some years now. I'm not at all surprised they've come out as strong as they have. Isn't it funny how the 7 degrees of Jim Prime keep turning out the "up and comings" and the "top of the top" these days? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFr3aK Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I wonder if Mr. VanDoren has to spend a lot of time with Crown at this point. Has his kid aged out yet? Crown has staff who have "grown" up under his system and maybe they "have it down" completely by now... Maybe Blue Stars is his next project to push up to top 5 brass program status??? I mean, it sounds like it to me!Yea, I know Shorty Bartholemew. He was also involved with Star... At least in '89... ( Crossmen later) You're right, Shorty was more technical, while Donnie was more the "LISTEN" guy. Hmmm, you've hit on some interesting stuff here. Yes, Evan (EVD) aged out last year with me! He's now on staff as a tech with Harloff. Now his daughter is still in the color guard! Donnie still plays a pretty big part in the Crown organization as a consultant to make sure they're doing the right things! Oh, and to scare everyone who isn't giving 100% all the time into playing 200% of the time! He is a great guy and I'm glad I got a chance to learn from him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) Now that I've thought about it a bit .... Klesch took over from Prime at Garfield in 85 and stayed until 1992. Prime went to Star at that time. Did these two men EVER work together other than when Klesch was marching ... and I'm guessing 1984? It looks like a story of the Master and the Student. They definitely have some similar arranging qualities. Edited July 8, 2009 by supersop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Now that I've thought about it a bit .... Klesch took over from Prime at Garfield in 85 and stayed until 1992. Prime went to Star at that time. Did these two men EVER work together other than when Klesch was marching ... and I'm guessing 1984? It looks like a story of the Master and the Student. They definitely have some similar arranging qualities. Not sure...but Jim was sitting a few rows in front of me during Crown's ensemble rehearsal yesterday. Figures he would be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFr3aK Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Now that I've thought about it a bit .... Klesch took over from Prime at Garfield in 85 and stayed until 1992. Prime went to Star at that time. Did these two men EVER work together other than when Klesch was marching ... and I'm guessing 1984? It looks like a story of the Master and the Student. They definitely have some similar arranging qualities. I believe you hit it on the nose! Prime stayed that year sort of how Donnie stays with Crown, to make sure they have it right! Prime was pleased and moved on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) FYI, Shorty has been heavily involved with Jersey Surf for some years now. I'm not at all surprised they've come out as strong as they have.Isn't it funny how the 7 degrees of Jim Prime keep turning out the "up and comings" and the "top of the top" these days? Well, that is interesting... I am very happy to hear that there are still some corps getting instruction from this group of people. ...so by extension, who is the arranger for Blue Stars? Does their show have any of this "old school" arranging? Have they gotten enough time under the system to get "that sound"? I don't think they're there yet, but think about it now, maybe they had "the sound" a bit last year. I'm not trying to get OT, but this connection is significant and Prime is my all time favorite drum corps arranger. Klesch has reminded me of Prime the past few years and I assumed it was because of VanDoren working there. Blue Stars arranger doesn't quite remind me of Klesch or Prime, but the hornline has moments of sounding like a VanDoren line ( meant in the best way, of course). Edited July 8, 2009 by jjeffeory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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