How can Drum Corps (or marching music)...

[Tez]

Best Original Composer for DCI shows with the most meat and entertainment value from a musical standpoint ......... hands down:

Robert W. Smith - Suncoast Sound

Use PR and Crown as examples of meaty shows is very smart. But how does the broader picture look? PR and Crown's style of arranging and meat demands on the music book are pretty much the exception. yes you can add Cadets to that as well.

Do you really think Wayne Downey would pull out La Fiesta or Latin Implosion from 1984 and make todays corps play those charts note for note with todays visual demands? HECK NO! Even if they tried, it wouldn't come close to sounding the same. Not because of instrumentation (well maybe a little), but because you can't play intricate charts like that while running and expect it to sound "studio quality". I would even venture to say that the members of 1984 would openly agree that the talent of the players in todays corps is better prepared, better players overall with higher skill coming into November then they had at finals. So what does that truly say?

Music is being sacrificed for total GE. Not BD's fault or any corps fault. That's just the state of the activity and that's driven by the value (or lack thereof) the music caption has in the overall scheme of scoring.

I truly believe if you asked Wayne Downey if he was sacrificing music for GE, he would not agree. I think he is just trying to do something different than he used to.

If Cadets, Crown, and Regiment still have meaty books while not sacrificing visual, why can't the other corps do it? And it's not like they're scoring horribly... Phantom won last year with what I considered the most meaty music book in DCI. And if we're talking about sacrificing music for visual, look at this year. Most people think that BD has one of the weakest visual designs (as far as demand and complexity), and your talking about how they are sacrificing music for that? If it was the Cadets with their crazy drill that had the watered down music, then there would be a point, but I think their book is pretty strong.

Having said all that, I do think BD this year does have a strong design and is just flat better than everyone else.... but I don't think all the corps need to design in that style to be competitive.

[supersop]

I truly believe if you asked Wayne Downey if he was sacrificing music for GE, he would not agree. I think he is just trying to do something different than he used to.

If Cadets, Crown, and Regiment still have meaty books while not sacrificing visual, why can't the other corps do it? And it's not like they're scoring horribly... Phantom won last year with what I considered the most meaty music book in DCI. And if we're talking about sacrificing music for visual, look at this year. Most people think that BD has one of the weakest visual designs (as far as demand and complexity), and your talking about how they are sacrificing music for that? If it was the Cadets with their crazy drill that had the watered down music, then there would be a point, but I think their book is pretty strong.

Having said all that, I do think BD this year does have a strong design and is just flat better than everyone else.... but I don't think all the corps need to design in that style to be competitive.

I pointed out specific examples for a reason. Charts from 84 (in comparison) were pretty much the norm for ALL corps back then (lets say 1992 back to the beginning of time). BD, Cavies, (hides) SCV, Glassmen etc etc etc .. even dare I say BOSTON don't have nearly the meat in todays shows compared to way back when. I'm talking complexity of the charts .. amount of notes being played ... instrumentation of the pit didn't really allow for vital technically challenging chunks of the music to be moved into their section. It remained in the brass book because there was no way the pit could balance out and maintain the musical flow while carrying the melody (using super hard mallets and playing as loud as possible was never pretty). Cavies changed their approach to brass arranging in 1989. BD changed around 2000 or so..... with each year after having less and less technically demanding portions of the music in the brass book. Sure they would put in licks and standstill phrases ... but not while moving at higher velocity. Why not? Because they no longer had to ... and they could win without it. Cavies proved that from 2000 - 2006 without a doubt. It's not a slam on the corps or the arrangers directly .... it's just how things are now (and what the judges are willing to accept). I really don't think it was a conscious choice on Mr. Downey's part to "do something different". I think it was truly a matter of "this is what we can get away with and still win". How can you fault that? I can't really. How can you dispute it? I really don't think there is much to dispute? The comparative recordings pretty much prove the point hands down.

I really think PR and Cadets are the only ones trying to keep it real (like the pre 2000/1992 era). Crown plays quite a bit, but I do believe Klesch would write more for them if the visual demands were less. I should know, I marched a show written by Klesch and won a championship. I don't hear anyone playing Candide on the field these days with all the hard parts.

Channel One Suite is a perfect example. 2002 compared to 1986 .... very different arrangement. It wasn't a modernized arrangement ... it was a less demanding arrangement. When they did keep it real, 1986 had a better quality of sound throughout ... in comparison. Instrumentation? maybe. Running thins out the sound, causes wavering in the tone .... ensemble sound suffers and maintaining ensemble blend and sustained dynamics is far more difficult.... and it showed.

Really consider that todays performers are far more prepared, music majors, super talented and ready before they even arrive. They play an easier show full of whole notes and put the demanding stuff in the pit. Those who don't play that game these days are usually out of the top 3. The old dogs like me didn't have all of that. But the emphasis was on the music in the brass book. Sure we did our fair share of running when I marched (nothing like today), but I would rather sound and play what we did then compared to now.

Please don't turn this into an old schooler riding the wahhhhhhhhhhhhmbulance. That's not it at all. I fully understand the todays corps are playing the game. Well, most of them are.

[shine1108]

I have to agree with the majority on this thread, when i first got involved in drum corps (back in the 80's!) for every corps that played something you hadnt heard of before i,e Suncoast Sound (one of my favourate shows of all time by the way), there was a phantom playing new world, and a corps played a large enough chunk of that piece that you you could listen to it.

You would listen to your favourites on the tapes (yes tapes!) and after a while (couple of months constantly!) you would move to the less familiar and think "hey, i actually really like this!".I was always suprised by how much music i recognised either though movie soundtracks, commercials, etc.

I tend to think of drum corps now like a young excited child speaking really quick, you hear what they say but you dont really listen (Ducks for cover). the more corps that play abstract and original pieces the more you will only attract a small niche of people.

I just want to point out that i'm amazed at what corps acheive today and still enjoy it, but i would wish that GE didnt count as much when it came to the design of shows musically.

[rayfallon]

It doesn't matter how drum corps is perceived with respect to Art. It is what it is. It's art, but who cares whether people poo poo it. You're never going to get the "art scene" crowd at drum corps shows. You can't wear a designer gown to a stadium in Jersey.

Half of the "artsy-fartsy" crowd would applaud for Muzak and go weak in the knees for the Emporers new clothes if that's what the current art gurus told them they should do.

This whole "drum corps as art" question is meaningless (yeah I know - how existential). No one knows what art is good art until it has withstood the test of time.

We know. That's all that counts.

[Puppet]

A drum corps member, fan, staff, whatever would see drum corps like movies. A full palette of visual and musical colors to experiment with.

What do you think?

The art of Drum Corps is taking music pairing that music with visual aspects within a specific set of guidelines. What is done within those guidelines is, was and will be the art of the individual corps and their show's creators. "Art?" It already is -in it's way. That's what I think.

Puppet

[atlvalet]

Well, okay... but the fact is, not many people (percentage of the population) do enjoy it. It is comparatively a very small activity. There are many more "high" art-forms (orchestral music, visual arts, ballet, opera, etc...) which have many more people who enjoy them. The number of people each year who enjoy these activities is far greater than the number of people who enjoy drum corps.

The fact is DCI is marketed in a way that's mediocre at best, IMHO (and professional opinion). It also lacks a lot of exposure. Drum Corps was also never the main form of music or art at any time in its existance, unlike some of the examples you pointed out above.

[Tez]

I pointed out specific examples for a reason. Charts from 84 (in comparison) were pretty much the norm for ALL corps back then (lets say 1992 back to the beginning of time). BD, Cavies, (hides) SCV, Glassmen etc etc etc .. even dare I say BOSTON don't have nearly the meat in todays shows compared to way back when. I'm talking complexity of the charts .. amount of notes being played ... instrumentation of the pit didn't really allow for vital technically challenging chunks of the music to be moved into their section. It remained in the brass book because there was no way the pit could balance out and maintain the musical flow while carrying the melody (using super hard mallets and playing as loud as possible was never pretty). Cavies changed their approach to brass arranging in 1989. BD changed around 2000 or so..... with each year after having less and less technically demanding portions of the music in the brass book. Sure they would put in licks and standstill phrases ... but not while moving at higher velocity. Why not? Because they no longer had to ... and they could win without it. Cavies proved that from 2000 - 2006 without a doubt. It's not a slam on the corps or the arrangers directly .... it's just how things are now (and what the judges are willing to accept). I really don't think it was a conscious choice on Mr. Downey's part to "do something different". I think it was truly a matter of "this is what we can get away with and still win". How can you fault that? I can't really. How can you dispute it? I really don't think there is much to dispute? The comparative recordings pretty much prove the point hands down.

I really think PR and Cadets are the only ones trying to keep it real (like the pre 2000/1992 era). Crown plays quite a bit, but I do believe Klesch would write more for them if the visual demands were less. I should know, I marched a show written by Klesch and won a championship. I don't hear anyone playing Candide on the field these days with all the hard parts.

Channel One Suite is a perfect example. 2002 compared to 1986 .... very different arrangement. It wasn't a modernized arrangement ... it was a less demanding arrangement. When they did keep it real, 1986 had a better quality of sound throughout ... in comparison. Instrumentation? maybe. Running thins out the sound, causes wavering in the tone .... ensemble sound suffers and maintaining ensemble blend and sustained dynamics is far more difficult.... and it showed.

Really consider that todays performers are far more prepared, music majors, super talented and ready before they even arrive. They play an easier show full of whole notes and put the demanding stuff in the pit. Those who don't play that game these days are usually out of the top 3. The old dogs like me didn't have all of that. But the emphasis was on the music in the brass book. Sure we did our fair share of running when I marched (nothing like today), but I would rather sound and play what we did then compared to now.

Please don't turn this into an old schooler riding the wahhhhhhhhhhhhmbulance. That's not it at all. I fully understand the todays corps are playing the game. Well, most of them are.

Fantastic Post!

With your great reasoning skills you have actually slightly changed some of my opinions (and that is no small feat here on DCP). You make so many good points. Maybe the first thing we need to do is address this topic with the judges. I think it is fairly obvious which shows have been immensely popular the last few years (Crown, Phantom). If we could somehow just slightly adjust the judging to award a more sophisticated, meaty, and cohesive music book, I think that could do wonders for the activity. To me, these things I just mentioned create tons of Music Effect. So maybe that's it.... we need to redefine on the judging sheets what "Effect" actually is.

I don't want a big change, I would just like these shows with more musical complexity and demand to be rewarded more than the others.

[jwillis35]

How can drum corps (or marching music) be better perceived as an art form?

OK, the question isn't a bad one, but I think some terminology needs addressed and then the questions will make more sense.

Music is an art, a form of art, or otherwise called an art form. It is about creation with artistic license.

Drum corps and marching band are musical organizations that support the making of music, combined with visual elements.

The creation of a marching show or production is a form of art, largely because everyone does it differently and uses different methods.

Now, will any of this help the marching band or drum corps be better perceived by the public and those in music (band directors, professional musicians, and the like)? I doubt it.

The perception that exists within that community of music professionals is more-or-less determined by their education. To them, drum corps is marching band, and marching band is a subservient activity to the athletic department's football team. End of story.

If you try to hard to please that crowd, you not only alienate the average fan/supporter/alum, but the crowd you are trying to please will wonder why you go through so much effort to turn an athletic band activity into something it was never meant to be.

Now, I don't personally feel that way, but that is how many in the professional music community look at drum corps and marching band. They don't see a difference, and even if one exists and you show them that, they could care less. That and 25 cents will get you a free bowl of soup.

So yes, music is an art, but trying to bring more awareness to the wrong crowd is a bad idea. As someone else mentioned: drum & bugle corps is a niche activity. Nothing wrong with that. It always will be. Going mainstream is a bad thing in so many ways, even if it could be done. Does DCI need to work on bringing more fans to the table? YES! But that doesn't mean Michael Jackson like numbers. They will never be that big. Marching Bands have been around for years and get to piggy back on the most liked sport in America, football; and yet that has not made them any more popular when off on their own at band nights and competitions. Bands are at their most popular when combined with the football team at a game. Take that away, whether you like it or not, and the numbers drop big time. I am sure there are exceptions, but in general this would be the case.

Go off to a competition with your band on a Saturday, and the attendance is shotty at best. Perform at a football game on Friday night and there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of people in the stands.

For all intents and purposes, drum corps is like a marching band that competes in the summer and never plays football games. Now, that sounds like a dream for many of us band directors (I know football season can drive me nuts towards the end). But...much like fall marching bands that perform at competitions and band nights, most of those events do not draw the same number of people that a high school or college football game does. The trick is not to be as popular as football, but to keep our niche identity and to keep the quality while looking for better revenue streams, and by looking for more fans who would be into this type of activity.

One of the ways to do this is to not over think the show design process. If we are catering to the "wine and cheese" crowd, then we are heading the wrong direction. That crowd, no matter how artsie and highbrow you make your show, could care less about this type of activity. Maybe you get a few to attend one show over a 3 or 4 year span. WOW, not much of a help. The truth about that crowd is that they are too busy hitting their concerts, museums, spending time at their beach homes, or traveling. They do things that have high stature amongst the elite in society...and sad to say, but going to a football stadium to watch some drum corps march, play, and spin objects is not exactly what that crowd does.

Some of the staff and program coordinators of these corps need to take a careful look at their show planning and their target audience. They could be out of business soon if they don't.

If I were to rephrase your question, I would do it as follows: How can drum & bugle corps bring more awareness to music lovers in order to increase ticket sales? Now, that's the all important question.

Edited July 26, 2009 by jwillis35

[Paisius]

What do I think? I think this is a horrible idea. Why would you WANT to be seen as an art form? To be "accepted into the fray?"...huh? Who cares who "accepts" drumcorps and who doesn't. If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't. Pretty simple. All this high-minded crap is just ridiculous. Get over yourselves! It is just drumcorps which is the same as marching band to regular folks. So what?

You know the funny thing is I've always had a hard time understanding how someone could not like drum corp.

But seriously I don't see why you would want to change things in order to appeal to a wider audience. There is something in drum corp that appeals to almost any musical tastes. Either you dig it or you don't and nothing is going to change that.

[BRASSO]

I think this is 180 degrees wrong.

The key to longevity is the support of fans, high school band programs and DC alumni, and seeking to broaden the activity beyond this core audience.

What you are proposing would make the appeal even narrower and make DC even more of a niche activity.

How would it help the activity to be "accepted into the fray" (whatever that means)? Jazz bands, chamber groups and orchestras are all struggling, and are finding their support and appeal ever dwindling.

Trading support from traditional fans for acceptance by a small group of self-appointed arbiters of what constitutes "art" would be a poor trade indeed.

Agree.

Imagine how much MORE subjective the judging would become when the judges would be comparing " Art " and assigning scores as to which of the " Art " portrayed is " better " than other of the " Arts " out on the field of competition with video screens and what not.

Question for the DCI judges.... which is " better Art", a Norman Rockwell Ilustration or a Impressionistic piece by Monet ? Hell, even world renowned Art critics are at odds over which is " better ". That's because it is impossible to compare. It comes down to personal lilkes and dislikes. No matter the training and qualifications of the " Art " judge.

I can just imagine the crankiness of fans with the judges scores should we go down the " Art Form " road and recreate artificial Art pieces on the field of Drum Corps competitions via large video screens meant to elicit scoring performance points before judges and fans.

Edited July 26, 2009 by BRASSO