Seeding For Quarters?

[GREENBLUE]

Is Seeding for Quarters based on the average scores of the the 3 regionals? And how does DCI determine who the judges will be during championship week? And when do we find out who they are?

Edited July 29, 2009 by GREENBLUE

[GGarrett]

There's that "seeding" word again.

So that's happening huh. DCI "seeds" the positions for finals? Puts corps in predetermined positions for finals?

OK.

[Silver_King]

a better word is slotting

[Liam]

There's that "seeding" word again.

So that's happening huh. DCI "seeds" the positions for finals? Puts corps in predetermined positions for finals?

OK.

Not sure I get your point. Seeding is merely determining a lineup based on some previous "earned" criteria. NCAA basketball does it -- matches you up based on previous performance. Then you have to go out and earn the next round. Same here -- seeding for Quarters based on some predetermined formula of past performance and then you earn your spot for each subsequent round. I don't get what's particularly wrong or nefarious in that.

(btw, this coming from someone who would prefer to see random performance order for Quarters, but for reasons other than that I think there's a predetermined outcome based on perf order )

[GGarrett]

Not sure I get your point. Seeding is merely determining a lineup based on some previous "earned" criteria. NCAA basketball does it -- matches you up based on previous performance. Then you have to go out and earn the next round. Same here -- seeding for Quarters based on some predetermined formula of past performance and then you earn your spot for each subsequent round. I don't get what's particularly wrong or nefarious in that.

(btw, this coming from someone who would prefer to see random performance order for Quarters, but for reasons other than that I think there's a predetermined outcome based on perf order )

My point is that I personally do not care for the fact that EITHER "seeding" OR "slotting" occurs in our activity. Some people here say that it does indeed happen, so that must mean that it is written into the DCI bylaws and rule book just how and when and why that happens? If it is, then tell me the place it is written so I can review it and get a better understanding of it. Because to me EITHER one sounds like collusion... as I have now said FOR YEARS. I DO get what's wrong and nefarious about that, because it somewhat eliminates the possibility that a corps could indeed be at their absolute peak performance ability that week and come out and slam another corps in performance simply by cleaning the heck out of their show in the week prior to DCI. But I do know that being clean isn't all the performance criteria anymore in DCI, and that's OK... I'm getting that.

I appreciate your last statement, however, because I say YES, put the corps on in a random order and lets test the judging system against itself and see if Blue Devils going on say right after a corps destined for say 20th place, wouldn't score say, a 1,000.00.

[I play the baritone good]

I'm pretty sure it's the averages of the regionals.

[ShortAndFast]

My point is that I personally do not care for the fact that EITHER "seeding" OR "slotting" occurs in our activity. Some people here say that it does indeed happen, so that must mean that it is written into the DCI bylaws and rule book just how and when and why that happens? If it is, then tell me the place it is written so I can review it and get a better understanding of it. Because to me EITHER one sounds like collusion... as I have now said FOR YEARS. I DO get what's wrong and nefarious about that, because it somewhat eliminates the possibility that a corps could indeed be at their absolute peak performance ability that week and come out and slam another corps in performance simply by cleaning the heck out of their show in the week prior to DCI. But I do know that being clean isn't all the performance criteria anymore in DCI, and that's OK... I'm getting that.

I appreciate your last statement, however, because I say YES, put the corps on in a random order and lets test the judging system against itself and see if Blue Devils going on say right after a corps destined for say 20th place, wouldn't score say, a 1,000.00.

DCI publishes the formula for seeding regionals and quarters each year. Look in the news section of DCI.org. This year, I believe quarters is the average of San Antonio, Atlanta and Allentown. How is this "collusion"? The corps have to perform in some order, and this is how they decide what order it is. It has nothing to do with the adjudication of the shows.

FWIW, last year they experimented with some randomization in the seeding for San Antonio (they randomized within groups of three). It didn't make much difference in the competitive outcome. Within reason, the judges do just fine regardless of performance order.

I say "within reason", because I think anybody would have a hard time judging:

22. Cascades

21. Blue Devils

... six hours ...

1. Cavaliers

You certainly won't get as good of an evaluation of BD vs. Cavies as if the judge had seen them back to back.

[Liam]

My point is that I personally do not care for the fact that EITHER "seeding" OR "slotting" occurs in our activity. Some people here say that it does indeed happen, so that must mean that it is written into the DCI bylaws and rule book just how and when and why that happens? If it is, then tell me the place it is written so I can review it and get a better understanding of it. Because to me EITHER one sounds like collusion... as I have now said FOR YEARS. I DO get what's wrong and nefarious about that, because it somewhat eliminates the possibility that a corps could indeed be at their absolute peak performance ability that week and come out and slam another corps in performance simply by cleaning the heck out of their show in the week prior to DCI. But I do know that being clean isn't all the performance criteria anymore in DCI, and that's OK... I'm getting that.

I appreciate your last statement, however, because I say YES, put the corps on in a random order and lets test the judging system against itself and see if Blue Devils going on say right after a corps destined for say 20th place, wouldn't score say, a 1,000.00.

Well, I'm still not clear entirely on your first paragraph. "Slotting" to me means that judges have pre-determined where a corps belongs and scores them accordingly. I don't buy this as each corps doesn't slot in the same for each sub caption, so as you say, this smacks of collusion which is a lot harder to pull off than it sounds. "Seeding" is merely a determination of performance order based on some previous criteria. Random "seeding" could also be done. This I would prefer, although not as a "test" on judges, but rather just so that any corps has a chance to perform in prime time on Thurs. The top corps are guaranteed their moment in the sun (or "out of the sun", I should say ) on Friday and Sat, so why not make Thurs more of an "Open" style competition.

As for the judges ability to figure it out: in another thread I dug up the last 3 years of BOA. I know it's not the same thing as DCI, but it's as close as we're going to get for examples. Same judging style. Some of the same judges even, I think. Anyway, BOA has random order for Finals and the results have been:

1) Placements come from all points of the evening: high placements early, lower placements late, and every permutation in between.

2) Regardless of perf order, placements come remarkably close to semis placements, which is also a somewhat random order or 30 or 35 bands.

So performance order has little or no effect on ultimate placement and any speculation to the contrary is just that -- speculation. Until I see hard evidence that contradicts actual BOA history (or even our 1988 experiment in which placement from a random Finals closely mirrored the "seeded" Semis), I refuse to believe that judging would be affected at all by random placement.

As for your wish for any corps to come out the week before Finals and clean enough to slam another corps -- didn't Phantom do exactly that last year. They were "seeded" into the 4th spot and methodically climbed to the Championship throughout the weekend. So I just don't see what the big deal is about "seeding". I would prefer random for the reasons I already stated, but I don't see anything nefarious in "seeding".

Now "slotting" (as I defined it above) that's a different deal

[Tez]

My point is that I personally do not care for the fact that EITHER "seeding" OR "slotting" occurs in our activity. Some people here say that it does indeed happen, so that must mean that it is written into the DCI bylaws and rule book just how and when and why that happens? If it is, then tell me the place it is written so I can review it and get a better understanding of it. Because to me EITHER one sounds like collusion... as I have now said FOR YEARS. I DO get what's wrong and nefarious about that, because it somewhat eliminates the possibility that a corps could indeed be at their absolute peak performance ability that week and come out and slam another corps in performance simply by cleaning the heck out of their show in the week prior to DCI. But I do know that being clean isn't all the performance criteria anymore in DCI, and that's OK... I'm getting that.

I appreciate your last statement, however, because I say YES, put the corps on in a random order and lets test the judging system against itself and see if Blue Devils going on say right after a corps destined for say 20th place, wouldn't score say, a 1,000.00.

Just because people on DCP talk and speculate about something doesn't mean that it really exists.

Seeding is simply determining the performance order.... they use the method of averaging regionals for two reasons:

1. It helps the judges.... comparing corps at similar levels that perform closely together is much easier than comparing ones over a span of several hours. If it is easier on the judges, and they don't have to remember minute details for long periods of time, they will score more accurately and fairly. I suppose for this reason, you could have the best corps go first and go straight down the list... but that leads to....

2. It is much more enjoyable for the audience if the corps get better and better as the night goes on. Have you ever been to a show where a top corps goes on really early?.... I have.... it makes the ones just after them seem slightly boring and underwhelming... this is not fair to them or to the audience.

Slotting is a theory where people think that judges already know about what place a corps should score, and they have a rough time scoring them any differently, even if they deserve so. I don't believe any judge would ever consciously slot a corps, but I can see how in certain circumstances, this notion may have very small effects on actual scores. For the most part, I think judges are very fair and impartial, and get it right.

If quarters were random, then maybe scores would turn out differently.... but who is to say that they would be more accurate? While this could possibly help some groups, how could it be fair to another which it hurt just because they got a bad "draw." This is why we seed.

[Nation of Bass]

My point is that I personally do not care for the fact that EITHER "seeding" OR "slotting" occurs in our activity. Some people here say that it does indeed happen, so that must mean that it is written into the DCI bylaws and rule book just how and when and why that happens? If it is, then tell me the place it is written so I can review it and get a better understanding of it. Because to me EITHER one sounds like collusion... as I have now said FOR YEARS. I DO get what's wrong and nefarious about that, because it somewhat eliminates the possibility that a corps could indeed be at their absolute peak performance ability that week and come out and slam another corps in performance simply by cleaning the heck out of their show in the week prior to DCI. But I do know that being clean isn't all the performance criteria anymore in DCI, and that's OK... I'm getting that.

I appreciate your last statement, however, because I say YES, put the corps on in a random order and lets test the judging system against itself and see if Blue Devils going on say right after a corps destined for say 20th place, wouldn't score say, a 1,000.00.

You are really misinterpreting the word seeding. Seeding is just placing a group in a spot due to previous performance. Like say HNC got an average of 94 for the three regionals, BD got and average of 94.5, and CC got an average of 93. BD would get the most favorable performance time (last), followed by HNC, then CC. Seeding is nothing like slotting. Think NCAA tournaments.