OICMR corps Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 2. It is much more enjoyable for the audience if the corps get better and better as the night goes on. Have you ever been to a show where a top corps goes on really early?.... I have.... it makes the ones just after them seem slightly boring and underwhelming... this is not fair to them or to the audience.This (quoted) should be the primary reason for seeding, it aids in the enjoyment of the show by the fans. We complain a lot about DCI not caring about entertaining the audience but seeding makes the all of the corps shows more enjoyable to me from top to bottom.If there is a problem with slotting then judging needs to change. If we think that a random draw will somehow confuse a judging panel who is fully aware of where each corps "ranks" coming into finals, we are fooling ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Just because people on DCP talk and speculate about something doesn't mean that it really exists.Seeding is simply determining the performance order.... they use the method of averaging regionals for two reasons: 1. It helps the judges.... comparing corps at similar levels that perform closely together is much easier than comparing ones over a span of several hours. If it is easier on the judges, and they don't have to remember minute details for long periods of time, they will score more accurately and fairly. I suppose for this reason, you could have the best corps go first and go straight down the list... but that leads to.... 2. It is much more enjoyable for the audience if the corps get better and better as the night goes on. Have you ever been to a show where a top corps goes on really early?.... I have.... it makes the ones just after them seem slightly boring and underwhelming... this is not fair to them or to the audience. Slotting is a theory where people think that judges already know about what place a corps should score, and they have a rough time scoring them any differently, even if they deserve so. I don't believe any judge would ever consciously slot a corps, but I can see how in certain circumstances, this notion may have very small effects on actual scores. For the most part, I think judges are very fair and impartial, and get it right. If quarters were random, then maybe scores would turn out differently.... but who is to say that they would be more accurate? While this could possibly help some groups, how could it be fair to another which it hurt just because they got a bad "draw." This is why we seed. 1. Please read my post directly above yours. I could dig up the numbers again if you require, but history in both DCI and BOA show that the judges can handle random order just fine. Speculation to the contrary is unfounded. I simply refuse to believe that perf order makes one iota of difference. The judges have proven that they can judge consistently regradless of perf order. There is no evidence that perf order matters one bit. 2. I agree that the audience impact could be an issue. One alternative I have suggested is grouping the corps in groups of four or five -- one from each quadrant of "seedings" and then randomize the groups. So you might start with Seattle, Colts, Glassmen, BD and end with Pioneer, Sprit, Boston, Cadets for example. This way there is a mix of corps throughout the evening and prevents the scenario where all the big boys are done by 8pm. One response to this is that it's not fair to a lower group to have to follow a powerhouse -- that the crowd will be disinterested and disappointed. My response to that is to ask Pioneer if they would rather go on first or second at 5pm with a very small and polite crowd or would they rather go on after BD under the lights in front of 15,000 or so. I think you have too little faith in the drum corps crowd to provide the Pioneer kids an experience of a lifetime. Also, we're only talking about Quarters here. All the corps have toured by this point. All have survived the summer and worked their tails off. Just for this one night, let them all be treated equally. By Friday, the corps will be back in their "correct" order and the competition begins. If the crowd understands that this is how Quarters is done -- in an Open style -- I believe they will take to it and embrace all the corps performing. Then Semis and Finals is reserved for back-to-back increasing competition. (Edit: also wanted to mention -- be careful what you proclaim to be "more enjoyable for the audience". We're dealing with this in another thread where one poster deigns to declare "universal" truths extrapolated over the entire audience. Just sayin') Edited July 29, 2009 by Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinwiz Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...howtopic=127764 Edited July 29, 2009 by Pinwiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Why so complicated just take the scores from Allentown and be done with it. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nation of Bass Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Why so complicated just take the scores from Allentown and be done with it. :lol: Averaging the three gives a better representation of consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Daddy Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 A random draw for performance would conceivably "force" fans to actually show up at the beginning of the show, especially of one of the more hightly ranked corps went on very early, instead of the stands filling up halfway through the performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGarrett Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Just because people on DCP talk and speculate about something doesn't mean that it really exists.Seeding is simply determining the performance order.... they use the method of averaging regionals for two reasons: 1. It helps the judges.... comparing corps at similar levels that perform closely together is much easier than comparing ones over a span of several hours. If it is easier on the judges, and they don't have to remember minute details for long periods of time, they will score more accurately and fairly. I suppose for this reason, you could have the best corps go first and go straight down the list... but that leads to.... 2. It is much more enjoyable for the audience if the corps get better and better as the night goes on. Have you ever been to a show where a top corps goes on really early?.... I have.... it makes the ones just after them seem slightly boring and underwhelming... this is not fair to them or to the audience. Slotting is a theory where people think that judges already know about what place a corps should score, and they have a rough time scoring them any differently, even if they deserve so. I don't believe any judge would ever consciously slot a corps, but I can see how in certain circumstances, this notion may have very small effects on actual scores. For the most part, I think judges are very fair and impartial, and get it right. If quarters were random, then maybe scores would turn out differently.... but who is to say that they would be more accurate? While this could possibly help some groups, how could it be fair to another which it hurt just because they got a bad "draw." This is why we seed. You are really misinterpreting the word seeding. Seeding is just placing a group in a spot due to previous performance. Like say HNC got an average of 94 for the three regionals, BD got and average of 94.5, and CC got an average of 93. BD would get the most favorable performance time (last), followed by HNC, then CC. Seeding is nothing like slotting. Think NCAA tournaments. OK... this is big for me... I'll concede "seeding" as not "predetermining" a position. There are good explanations here about THAT from several people. I can see the points made on tie's, but I STILL just don't think they are good or generally as likely to happen as much as they have been over the years, in some cases. So I'm not giving in on ties. But anyone likes them, more power to ya. You'll be cheering in the stands, and I'll be the anarchist behind you say "that's BS." Maybe I just don't like the word... "Seeding." Bleah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 OK... this is big for me... I'll concede "seeding" as not "predetermining" a position. There are good explanations here about THAT from several people. I can see the points made on tie's, but I STILL just don't think they are good or generally as likely to happen as much as they have been over the years, in some cases. So I'm not giving in on ties. But anyone likes them, more power to ya. You'll be cheering in the stands, and I'll be the anarchist behind you say "that's BS." Maybe I just don't like the word... "Seeding." Bleah... not a fan of crops, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesBry Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 ...actually show up at the beginning of the show...instead of the stands filling up halfway through the performances. I still don't understand why people pay so much for a ticket and then only show up for half the show. When I go to see Drum Corps, I get there at least 30 minutes early to browse the marketplace (and this is after dropping in on at least one corps' rehearsal). For me, even the last place corps has something worth watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nation of Bass Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I still don't understand why people pay so much for a ticket and then only show up for half the show. When I go to see Drum Corps, I get there at least 30 minutes early to browse the marketplace (and this is after dropping in on at least one corps' rehearsal). For me, even the last place corps has something worth watching. I totally agree with you. When I went to DATR I watched the "throwdown" before the gates opened and browsed through the souvies and got a $5 shirt. Unfortunately, I couldn't watch warm ups because Invesco doesn't let you re-enter the stadium after you leave. On a different note, I thought even High Country Brass was mildly entertaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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