DCI finals review

[highpitch_83]

Spot on!!

First off, I know this has been mentioned by others, but this is NOT A REVIEW thread. It is simply yet another Therapy Thread (disguised as a review) designed to help those BD haters cope with their angst. A soap box for the losers gallery if you will..(and by losers I am NOT referring to the awesome competing corps, just the pathetic DCP posters that think they understand it all). The OP's (and others) rants are symbolic of the total lack of understanding of quality design and demand today. My guess is that if they sat down with the other corps show designers and said the kind of nonsense criticisms of BD they have been foisting on DCP over the last few weeks, that most of those designers for the other corps would tell them that they are full of beans. Those designers would speak at length about BD's designs (this year and last year) and speak about the quality and complexity of their design. In fact, Crown and Cadets used several of the nuances BD used last year for their shows this year.

Also, concerning the crowd reaction there are a few things at play here:

1) They're BD and the midwest wants someone else to win for a change! As was said earlier, if this was held at the Rose Bowl the response for BD could be measured on the Richter Scale. At Lucas Oil "some" people sat on their hands because they wanted their corps to be seen as better or they just wanted any winner other than BD. BD could have brought out Osama Bin Laden in handcuffs during their finals performance and that "certain bunch" of attendees would have reacted the same. IMHO the roar from the stands for PR last year would have been far less if BD would have place 4th or 5th...it would then have been purely about PR and not "thank God it ain't BD". Last year they had a vent (raucous applause)... this year they just had to "boo" and/or write "reviews" like this thread.

2) Someone mentioned that the crowd loved SCV and showed it....we all loved SCV but that's not a comparison that works as far as the crowd reaction is concerned. SCV has not won for some time and certainly was not in contention on Finals night...so the crowd could feel free to love them as loud as they wanted. Bottom line: It's not a California thing....it's a BD thing...period!

3) By the way, speaking about applause...you may be interested to know that BD was the ONLY corps on the field that applauded Crown when they won the Ott Award for best brass. THE ONLY ONE!!!! Obviously NO ONE on field applauded for any of BD's Caption Awards (including Crown)...it was sickening to watch. That speaks volumes about the lack of poise and sportmenship both on the field and in the stands. By the way, BD knows this..and fully expects to be treated like this as long as they continue to win at Lucas Oil Stadium! A small price to pay.

4) Finally, before any of you experts feel qualified to know enough about demand you may want to get with someone who can speak to the difficulty of BD's show(s)....like a show designer or choreographer. Instead, the montra of the uneducated on DCP have found several buzz words that they like to use this season to discribe BD such as "simple", "not playing much", "sitting in chairs", "cluttered", "distracting", "uninteresting", etc, all the trite comments that help sooth their hurt because the judging community doesn't agree with them. Most of them would not care to learn the truth, but if any of them would (again) sit down with someone who really understood drill and show design they would explain at length how BD's show was not only off the charts difficult but demanding in terms of individual skill.

I see how this works:

1. Provide a subjective review of /insert corps here/

2. Be assaulted by alumni from said corps pointing out how your OPINION is invalid due to /insert subjective reasoning here/

3. Counter with more subjective reasoning

4. (?)

5. Profit

Let's wrap this up: Whether you enjoyed BD's show or not, they ended up taking the title. We're all allowed to have an opinion whether it was warranted or not but the fact is, they took the crown and the onus is on the rest of the field to find a way to come out on top them next year (if that is their primary goal).

BD wanted to win a title, they designed a show that showcased their strengths and masked any deficiencies; as a result they won. /fin

edit/P.S. As someone from the midwest I could give a s*** whether a west coast, left coast or 3rd coast corps takes the title but I'll cheer the loudest for a corps that entertains me and makes a tingle go up & down my spine; the Blue Devils haven't done that for me since '94...

Despite claiming not to be addressing the entire DCP community you're doing a fantastic job of generalizing entire regions of fans.

Edited August 11, 2009 by highpitch_83

[corps-mudgeon]

Again. . .the crowd went nuts for plenty of other corps that are not from the midwest. I am also betting most of the crowd there were not even from the midwest.

For example, the Saturday night crowd stood up for the Vanguard company front and didn't sit down until after the performance was over.

[Tony L.]

BD wanted to win a title, they designed a show that showcased their strengths and masked any deficiencies; as a result they won. /fin

I have to agree here. I think this is just another example of smart programming winning another title.

I, for one, was very disappointed not by the use of the chairs, but by the amount of time that the hornline essentially remained stationary within the 30 yardlines and in front of the hashes. Yes, it is smart because while stationary in that position, they could create a big sound, but I just could not get over the lack of field coverage while also playing. Even when you consider the interesting opening drill in which the straight line turns into a block, the low brass are the main people playing under the soloists, and they are the last people to have to move to complete the block. The drill was mostly done by those who had no real playing responsibilities (save for playing back up whole notes for the two trumpet soloists and of course the euphonium solo played into the microphone). I think if you look at the video, it is really difficult to pick this up, but when I saw them live for the first time this weekend, I was truly struck more by this than the (over)use of the chairs -- which did make for a neat effect at first and they should have disappeared until the very end.

Finally, I can't believe people aren't going crazy over the fact that the big drill moments for the show involve making a "$" and making 1930 like 3 times. I thought SCV took a lot of guff for similar drill back in 2005, but hey, at least they made their years while moving.

So more smart programming will continue to mask weaknesses and accentuate strengths and as long as it is done by one of the big boys, it will continue to win titles. Oh well, thank goodness I've stopped bothering with the scores -- they just ruin everything.

[BRASSO]

i'll partially agree. while the math breaks down to 50/50 on how its weighted, commentary is 65/35 to visual. music judges have to comment about visual demands all the time.

yet never do visual judges talk about the music demands the performer must juggle with the visual. NEVER.

if this were the case, BD may still have won, but the spread would be closer, and, IMO, the visual demand numbers would have been lower than the visual performance numbers

You seem to have a good grasp of this re. how the music and visual judges are asked ( and not asked ) to apply their evaluations.

Would anyone here be surprised if the Blue Devils changed their show design approach if the judging captions changed their emphasis ?

I wouldn't. Long time observers of DCI know how BD rethought their whole approach to shows, once they began to fall off a bit placement wise in the early 90's. Priior to this, BD could win with just a killer brass and percussion line, but just a so so visual. But the landscape changed. The Visual Age of Drum Corps came into being. And the judging captions changed with it. To their credit, the BD 's adapted to this new paradigm, but only after a few years of watching others pass them on the visual side to garner higher placements and titles. At the end of the day, the Champion is still the Corps that has an integrated theme that is deemed fresh and innovative, has sufficient demand THAT IS EXECUTED better than the others, and has a superior overall brass, drum, pit, guard. Thats the 2009 Blue Devils. That's why they went undefeated in 2009. If people wern't entertained, that's their perogative. But it didn't matter what combination of judging panels BD faced. They won them all over. And that's that. BD was not my favorite show for 2009. ( although it appears I liked it a LOT more than some DCP's here ) I have no problems with this years placements, nor scores. But if others here do, that's their opinion too, and that's cool.

Edited August 11, 2009 by BRASSO

[Plan9]

By far and large you are just wrong. Sure there are some fans who won't cheer/applaud out of hatred for corps. I will admit to being one of those people in the past. But, generally speaking, most drum corps fans reward excellence/excitement when deserved. BD got mild applause based on how clean they were, and I'm sure some who really dug their show, but the masses Saturday night just did not get into the show, not because of any bias, but out of the design not eliciting a response.

Again. . .the crowd went nuts for plenty of other corps that are not from the midwest. I am also betting most of the crowd there were not even from the midwest.

So, what's your next explanation for why everyone doesn't love BD 09?

As I said, this is more about BD then where they are from. My connection to California is only that if other corps compete there the scales are level. Yes they cheer a little more for SCV and BD but they give a wonderful ovation to everyone, including Cadets I might add (even though there was some booing for George at the 2007 finals).

There were plenty of venues this summer where BD got a tremendous response, but some fans were looking for another moment like last year where the underdog took the bone from the big dog. It wasn't going to happen this year and most knew it by Thursday night. But in the end, for me, it's simply a matter of class and common courtesy. I stood immediately in response to the big moments in the various shows ALL OF THEM (and a few when I stood by myself and quickly sat down), and I'm a BD fan. But when it was BD's turn there was a palpable feeling around me where they made a point to not respond in anyway even though the corps was busting their ### like everyone else. It was identical last year in Bloomington, identical. I even got ###### last year and said to the group in front of me, "what the hell's wrong with you people, I just got done screaming for your corps and you all sit there like dummies silently". There was still plenty that responded but plenty who targeted their response, it's childish in my view. It just shows they don't love Drum Corps, they love their Drum Corps. And they think that if they don't applaud that it will effect the outcome somehow. It's nonsense.

[Jeff Ream]

You seem to have a good grasp of this re. how the music and visual judges are asked ( and not asked ) to apply their evaluations.

Would anyone here be surprised if the Blue Devils changed their show design approach if the judging captions changed their emphasis ?

I wouldn't. Long time observers of DCI know how BD rethought their whole approach to shows, once they began to fall off a bit placement wise in the early 90's. Priior to this, BD could win with just a killer brass and percussion line, but just a so so visual. But the landscape changed. The Visual Age of Drum Corps came into being. And the judging captions changed with it. To their credit, the BD 's adapted to this new paradigm, but only after a few years of watching others pass them on the visual side to garner higher placements and titles. At the end of the day, the Champion is still the Corps that has an integrated theme that is deemed fresh and innovative, has sufficient demand THAT IS EXECUTED better than the others, and has a superior overall brass, drum, pit, guard. Thats the 2009 Blue Devils. That's why they went undefeated in 2009. If people wern't entertained, that's their perogative. But it didn't matter what combination of judging panels BD faced. They won them all over. And that's that. BD was not my favorite show for 2009. ( although it appears I liked it a LOT more than some DCP's here ) I have no problems with this years placements, nor scores. But if others here do, that's their opinion too, and that's cool.

i think it needs to go back to 50/50

[Plan9]

You seem to have a good grasp of this re. how the music and visual judges are asked ( and not asked ) to apply their evaluations.

Would anyone here be surprised if the Blue Devils changed their show design approach if the judging captions changed their emphasis ?

I wouldn't. Long time observers of DCI know how BD rethought their whole approach to shows, once they began to fall off a bit placement wise in the early 90's. Priior to this, BD could win with just a killer brass and percussion line, but just a so so visual. But the landscape changed. The Visual Age of Drum Corps came into being. And the judging captions changed with it. To their credit, the BD 's adapted to this new paradigm, but only after a few years of watching others pass them on the visual side to garner higher placements and titles. At the end of the day, the Champion is still the Corps that has an integrated theme that is deemed fresh and innovative, has sufficient demand THAT IS EXECUTED better than the others, and has a superior overall brass, drum, pit, guard. Thats the 2009 Blue Devils. That's why they went undefeated in 2009. If people wern't entertained, that's their perogative. But it didn't matter what combination of judging panels BD faced. They won them all over. And that's that. BD was not my favorite show for 2009. ( although it appears I liked it a LOT more than some DCP's here ) I have no problems with this years placements, nor scores. But if others here do, that's their opinion too, and that's cool.

Well, this post is why they say, "Get out of the way and let the pro's do it!" Well done Sir!

Edited August 11, 2009 by Plan9

[raphael18]

It's not about hating BD or not, I think far to many pro-BD people are taking that stance in order to play the victim here. The simple fact is that no amount of rationalization is going to sell the inferred demand of the chairs to most avid fans of the activity. In a year or two, perhaps more BD fans will be able to stand back and truly re-evaluate this show and see what the rest of us are seeing.

Personally, I'm a big BD fan. I loved most of the corps shows from 1986-2006 (with 2005 as a notable exception), but I simply can't believe the corps won with what they put out this year. I'm not particularly fond of Crown, though, I think they are quickly becoming one of my favorite corps.

So, what is the real problem here - the quality of BD's design, or what the judges are rewarding?

Reading this thread (and talking to many other fans of different corps affiliations), I really think the disconnect is with the judges. Part of my issue with modern judging is the inability to rank corps based on the strengths of the individual captions. [That is, a corps should be able to be top 3 in a performance caption, but still place in the bottom of the top 12] The issues with numbers management are quite apparent - though, I suspect DCI is pushing higher scores, because they feel it makes the activity more distinguished. Then, there's the apparent failure to accurately represent the distinction between Repertoire and Performance on the sheets.

BD must be great at selling their shows (I recall a rumor that a certain key staff member was once a used car salesmen), but they really need to start selling to the crowds again. People don't 'boo' when the underdog doesn't win, they 'boo' when they are not satisfied with the champion.

Plan9, you have to accept that this is probably the most forgettable championship show in recent memory (worse than 07 even). The BD crew can take their ring and bragging rights home, but the rest of the activity will always look at it as a bit of a debacle. If BD wants any wide-based non-California crowd support, they better bring a real show next year.

Edited August 11, 2009 by raphael18

[BRASSO]

There is rarely a year when the DCI Champion would have been selected Champion if put to a vote of the national audience.

Out of the last 25 years, maybe 3 or 4 Corps that won the title would likewise have been selected as the Crowd's favorite.

The Star of Indiana was rarely a crowd favorite at the time either.

When the Cavs were winning their titles, the people were complaining about the" lack of melody"

When the Cadets won... they were " weird "

When the Blue Devils were winning in the late 70's, late 80's fans complained about " their lack of visuals "

Madison Scouts were loved in 95,... but came in fifth.

however, some fans, particularly on the east coast, weren't thrilled with the Madison Scouts win in '75 when the Muchachos never took the field at Finals. Corps that are also rans always tend to be more loved than the ultimate champion. ( 84, 89, 2008, being some notable exceptions )

What the 2009 DCI Champion is experiencing is not that unusual at all. As a matter of fact, it is more the norm for the Champion.

Edited August 11, 2009 by BRASSO

[bluublood]

It's not about hating BD or not, I think far to many pro-BD people are taking that stance in order to play the victim here. The simple fact is that no amount of rationalization is going to sell the inferred demand of the chairs to most avid fans of the activity. In a year or two, perhaps more BD fans will be able to stand back and truly re-evaluate this show and see what the rest of us are seeing.

Personally, I'm a big BD fan. I loved most of the corps shows from 1986-2006 (with 2005 as a notable exception), but I simply can't believe the corps won with what they put out this year. I'm not particularly fond of Crown, though, I think they are quickly becoming one of my favorite corps.

So, what is the real problem here - the quality of BD's design, or what the judges are rewarding?

Reading this thread (and talking to many other fans of different corps affiliations), I really think the disconnect is with the judges. Part of my issue with modern judging is the inability to rank corps based on the strengths of the individual captions. [That is, a corps should be able to be top 3 in a performance caption, but still place in the bottom of the top 12] The issues with numbers management are quite apparent - though, I suspect DCI is pushing higher scores, because they feel it makes the activity more distinguished. Then, there's the apparent failure to accurately represent the distinction between Repertoire and Performance on the sheets.

BD must be great at selling their shows (I recall a rumor that a certain key staff member was once a used car salesmen), but they really need to start selling to the crowds again. People don't 'boo' when the underdog doesn't win, they 'boo' when they are not satisfied with the champion.

Plan9, you have to accept that this is probably the most forgettable championship show in recent memory (worse than 07 even). The BD crew can take their ring and bragging rights home, but the rest of the activity will always look at it as a bit of a debacle. If BD wants any wide-based non-California crowd support, they better bring a real show next year.

Thank god this is not true. The only time I ever hear that BS about 07 (and 09) is hear on DCP.