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Thoughts of a drum corps rookie fan


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Good example of what you're talking about. Phantom was every bit as good as the highest corps both in brass and percussion and they were in 9th,which I find completely absurd. DCI politics at work. You would assume corps work to improve their shows and fix what judges may see,so scores should vary much more than they do....

Hmmm, no synthesizer perhaps? But we won't go there will we.....

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You are so right.....maybe Phantom didn't have the greatest visual package this year, but their musical package (brass and percussion) could hang with anyone..............there is no serious caption integrity anymore.........all I know is there are 3 corps in the top 6 that can't hold a candle to what Phantom plays (and how they play it) in brass..........and the musical effect caption is really a joke.....

GB

Over the top we go!!!!! Hold on! :doh::doh:

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uh oh... even the new drum corps fans can tell there is slotting :doh:

There is no politcs or SLOTTING in drum corps....hush your mouth! :doh:

Great observations from a first time drum corps fan, op... :doh:

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I think http://fromthepressbox.com/ might have what you're looking for. It has records of scores from most years of DCI, if not every year, along with full recaps for many other years.

Also, I think I may have met you this summer, as I marched with your son.

Thanks. I got a PM from another member with the same suggestion. As I replied to him, the problem is not with DCI numbers I can crunch, but with equivalent (sorta) data on other sports. I'm sure it's out there, but I haven't found it yet.

As I said in my original post, I was blown away by the quality of all the shows, and you guys certainly could have been a notch or two higher. We may indeed have met, although all I remember is a bunch of impossibly fit and tanned kids playing great music loud enough that a seat belt in the bleachers would have been useful. Great stuff.

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I had the same observation and I'm by no means a PR groupie. Thought PR's brass was as good as BD's and almost as good as Crown's. Battery was awesome. Show was just good in general. I don't know what was weighing them down, but I felt they had a Top 5 show that finished 9th.

Guard, theme, visual design really made things difficult for Phantom this year.

PR's brass line was good, but not as good as that of Crown's and Blue Devils this year.

And their visual.... theme.... guard were subpar this year compared to last year. They were nipped by Boston Crusaders and Blue Stars( both improved Corps this year )after being in a fierce battle with them most of the summer.

Phantom Regiment has more shows than any other in my favorite top 20 of all time too, so it's not like I'm not in Phantom's corner. This year they seemed to get the score and placement they deserved. Had they nipped Boston and Blue Stars by a few tenths, I 'd have seen how that could have happened as well too though. Phantom had the liuck of the draw last year with both percussion judges at Finals predispossed to like Phantom. This year, two of the judges in the draw for Finals were not so predisposed to them going in to the Finals. Blue Stars and Boston seemed to have gotten a tad more favorable draw at Finals than Phantom. ( Boston did not the last 2 years at Finals ). These judging panels mean only a difference of maybe a point at most and usually less. But when the Corps are really close, those few tenths can mean the difference in a placement or two and the margin separation. between these Corps. And that's what we had this year in the battle for 7-9th, it seems to me.

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I haven't been able to find enough data in one place to finish this project, but I've been looking at the standard deviation of scores in DCI and other judged sports like figure skating, gymnastics and the like. The little bit of data I've been able to crunch shows that the standard deviation of scores in those sports is a lot greater than the standard deviation of the DCI judging. I'm not going to assert that such is the case, because I haven't found enough data on the Internet. But I have a suspicion in the back of my mind that by mid-summer there's a consensus among the judges as to who's going to be ranked where by the time the cook trucks start rolling for Indy, and it's really not possible for a corps to "bust the curve."

Hmmm...it's a pretty undeniable fact that there were a lot of changes in rankings over the course of the summer (other than in your kids corps, obviously), so yeah.

Also, see if you can come up with some reasons other than conspiracy theories about judging as to why baseball and figure skating might have more dynamic placements/rankings from one competition to the next. It should be a lengthy list if you put your mind to it.

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Hmmm...it's a pretty undeniable fact that there were a lot of changes in rankings over the course of the summer (other than in your kids corps, obviously), so yeah.

Also, see if you can come up with some reasons other than conspiracy theories about judging as to why baseball and figure skating might have more dynamic placements/rankings from one competition to the next. It should be a lengthy list if you put your mind to it.

I hope you'll agree that my point was not that my kid's corps was screwed over and I want by god heads to roll!!!

I'd never heard the term "slotting" until I posted here after Indianapolis. I guess even some of the long-time fans think it's real.

The competition aspect doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the shows, but look at this:

http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?e...00-4d58c420606f

Except for the Colts, no team scored more than one notch higher or lower than their overall ranking.

Or here:

http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?e...27-3a2ed46c8366

No team scored more than one caption score above or below their overall ranking, and the Colts (sorry to pick on them) had scores equal across the board.

This isn't scientific, I agree in advance, and I haven't done more than crunch the numbers for drum corps to come up with a standard deviation. I can't find the data easily available to cut and paste and crunch for other sports to see if the numbers are a lot different. This started out as an intellectual exercise, not a vendetta.

But as a rookie fan, I would have thought that different corps would have had different strengths. Somebody's brass line would be head and shoulders above the rest, or somebody's color guard would have been brilliant while the other elements were just OK. One response here said that every element affects everything else. OK -- then let's just have an overall rating, because the percussion tech in a corps can't tell whether he's competitive, his kids scored just like the brass and pit and maybe the problem is the color guard that's dragging everything else down.

Undeniable fact that there were lots of changes in rankings? Over the course of this season (especially the second half, which was my comment and the evident object of your ire)? I'm open to data and will admit being wrong if the numbers show I am. We're not talking about year-to-year, right?

My point about other sports is that I don't believe that teams -- especially teams of youngsters -- can't have brilliant nights, or have a night when they are off pace. But with caption scores so consistent across the board in DCI, I wonder if scores vary more widely in team gymnastics, synchronized swimming, and other sports with more than one competitor (and I have no earthly idea how to adjust,say, pairs diving with drum corps). The point is not how difficult or technical the sport is; it's how it is judged, and whether kids can have brilliant days and off days. They're not robots, after all.

Finally, you missed the point about baseball. A last-place team can turn a beautiful double-play and keep the fans coming back. And last-place teams can make a run for the pennant. Until proven otherwise, I'll say a drum corps can't.

I'll keep coming back for the music and the showmanship.

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Keep in mind that the judges don't sit there and discuss where they're going to place the corps in their respective captions. They don't conspire like a jury and contemplate the averages of all of their adjudications and place the corps accordingly. The scores are consistent not as a result of the judges knowing what each other will score the corps, but as a result of a staff of experienced, educated judges adjudicating the corps accurately.

It is the judge's job, as it is a soccer referee or a baseball umpire, to be fair. It is their job to leave all predispositions at the door and come into each competition with a fresh idea of what to expect, regardless of how they scored the corps the night before. When a soccer referee steps on the field to do a professional match, he is doing so with several days' worth of research on team tactics, coaches' philosophies, and individual players' behaviors. With this information, he can better balance the metaphoric scales in order to manage the match with the utmost fairness and precision.

The judges in DCI are no different. They understand the show designs and the methodology each corps has in the respective captions they adjudicate. There's a difference between predisposition and having an understanding of the history of the corps' (or teams') competitive season. I would like to think that the consistent proximity of scores is because the guys and girls out there running their butts around on the field have it down to such a science that their individual scores are so spot on as to be coinciding. As someone mentioned before, the colorguard doesn't affect it's own caption alone; it also affects GE Visual and Ensemble Visual. Similarly, Music Brass also affects Ensemble Music and GE Music. Why is it so hard to believe that the consistency between these scores is not a conspiracy but rather a sign that these judges are so good that there is hardly any deviation between their respective evaluations?

Yes, DCI judging is subjective, but only to a point. The AP English test, for instance, consists of three essays. The people that grade them are given examples at the beginning of the week that say "This essay deserves a 6. Here's why. This essay deserves a 9. Here's why." Then after they're graded they are checked at random by higher-ranked individuals to make sure that the evaluations are not deviating from what the AP organization wants for grades. I'm sure that DCI has judging broken down similarly, minimizing the unfairness of a judge's subjectivity. If you had JJ Pipitone and Jeff Prosperie judge Music Percussion for a series of shows at the same time, I'm sure that the differences between their scores would be minimal. Perhaps enough to alter a corps placement, but certainly not a 9.80 from one and a 7.60 from the other.

After many years of officiating sports professionally, it's obvious that there are many people that "know" they can do their job better than you, usually because they've played for 20 years, or they coached their son growing up, or their nephew is a referee too. While there are many reasons for them "knowing" this, being genuinely qualified for the job on a certified level is rarely one of them. The ones who are qualified enough for the job usually know how difficult the job is, and have enough respect for those willing to do it to keep their mouths shut.

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Undeniable fact that there were lots of changes in rankings? Over the course of this season (especially the second half, which was my comment and the evident object of your ire)? I'm open to data and will admit being wrong if the numbers show I am. We're not talking about year-to-year, right?

It sounds like you're interested in counterexamples. Go here, and change the date range to include the beginning of the season:

http://dciscores.com/world/?year=2009

These aren't rankings per se but show how overall scores bounce around some over the summer (unless you're the Blue Devils or Bluecoats :thumbup: ).

No team scored more than one caption score above or below their overall ranking, and the Colts (sorry to pick on them) had scores equal across the board.

And in this competion (Finals) Phantom Regiment's caption ordinals range from 5 to 10, and subcaptions from 5 to 11.

http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?e...fd-7db802b3e1c6

You're probably right in concluding that it's unlikely that a corps would have a hot game and have a surprise upset victory out of the blue like a baseball team can, but then again, a baseball team isn't constrained by a show design they have to live with. Not to mention there are so many elements in a drum corps show, the small random elements that might change a baseball game end up being averaged out into a statistical near certainty.

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After many years of officiating sports professionally, it's obvious that there are many people that "know" they can do their job better than you, usually because they've played for 20 years, or they coached their son growing up, or their nephew is a referee too. While there are many reasons for them "knowing" this, being genuinely qualified for the job on a certified level is rarely one of them. The ones who are qualified enough for the job usually know how difficult the job is, and have enough respect for those willing to do it to keep their mouths shut.

You seem to have decided that I'm accusing the judges of corruption or incompetence or both. OK...the judge has spoken.

It sounds like you're interested in counterexamples. Go here, and change the date range to include the beginning of the season:

And in this competion (Finals) Phantom Regiment's caption ordinals range from 5 to 10, and subcaptions from 5 to 11.

You're probably right in concluding that it's unlikely that a corps would have a hot game and have a surprise upset victory out of the blue like a baseball team can, but then again, a baseball team isn't constrained by a show design they have to live with. Not to mention there are so many elements in a drum corps show, the small random elements that might change a baseball game end up being averaged out into a statistical near certainty.

I can't quite wrap my mind around the first chart -- gotta have numbers and data to be able to focus. :thumbup:

You're right; the scores in the finals were a lot more variable than the average for the second half of the year combined.

Somehow, the baseball analogy has gotten too prominent. I mentioned it only as an example of a sport where rankings are widely followed, at least in part because they are variable. The sports I was more interested in comparing to drum corps are those where there is subjective scoring over several elements including artistic impression and technical merit. As I grumbled earlier, I haven't yet found the necessary data for other sports online in a form easy to cut and paste, and I'm not so obsessed with this that I'm going to enter it all manually.

I'm sure some smart guy has already tried this at some time or another, but what I'd like to do is measure the variability of rankings in competitions (between corps) and the variability of individual element scores within corps. The final step would be to compare the deviation of a corps' individual scores to the deviation of other corps' marks to see if some corps are significantly more erratic in their performances than others. Finally, pin those numbers on the wall and see how they compare to those in other subjectively judged sports.

Maybe there would be no difference. I suspect there is or I wouldn't have started thinking about the subject. If the drum corps scores are significantly more tightly grouped, why is that the case?

(Anybody see anything yet about briefcases full of money or judges who can't tell a sharp from a flat?)

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