Thoughts of a drum corps rookie fan

[corps-mudgeon]

I'm sure some smart guy has already tried this at some time or another, but what I'd like to do is measure the variability of rankings in competitions (between corps) and the variability of individual element scores within corps. The final step would be to compare the deviation of a corps' individual scores to the deviation of other corps' marks to see if some corps are significantly more erratic in their performances than others. Finally, pin those numbers on the wall and see how they compare to those in other subjectively judged sports.

Maybe there would be no difference. I suspect there is or I wouldn't have started thinking about the subject. If the drum corps scores are significantly more tightly grouped, why is that the case?

I know there are DCP members who have done some fine grain analysis of caption scores to prove or disprove that judges are biased for or against a particular corps, and I'm surprised they haven't chimed in yet. I don't think that's your premise, but the their level of analysis might contribute some insight.

Maybe a separate thread with a clear subject might draw them in.

[Tito John]

I know there are DCP members who have done some fine grain analysis of caption scores to prove or disprove that judges are biased for or against a particular corps, and I'm surprised they haven't chimed in yet. I don't think that's your premise, but the their level of analysis might contribute some insight.

Trying to prove or disprove bias is, as you say, a completely different animal. For what I'm wondering about, you have to be able to compare drum corps with other subjectively judged sports, see whether there are statistically significant differences in the scores across elements and across other teams, and then explain why those differences occur. The data for drum corps alone don't tell you anything interesting.

I think I'll just drop it and catch a show or two when they're nearby.....

[SomeOtherJoe]

Good example of what you're talking about. Phantom was every bit as good as the highest corps both in brass and percussion and they were in 9th,which I find completely absurd. DCI politics at work. You would assume corps work to improve their shows and fix what judges may see,so scores should vary much more than they do....

Phantom could have taken 3rd in both Brass and Drums and it would have moved them up exactly... 1 spot. Heck, you could have given them 3rd in all the music categories -- Brass, Drums, and Ensemble -- and it would have moved 'em up to... 7th.

In fact, the 12th place corps -- Troopers -- could have taken 1st in drums with a 19.9 and it would have moved them up... 0 spots. Same goes for BK who took 12th in drums. Give 'em a 19.9 and they move up... 0 spots.

Gone are the days when a corps could catapult a number of places on the strength of an individual skill section i.e. Bridgemen taking 8th in '82 on the strength of a stellar drumline. The individual skills captions have been smoothed out on the sheets (not in the judges heads) and their impact minimized greatly.

The obvious culprit is averaging, but it goes further than that. In the tick era (and I'm not advocating bringing it back), 12th place corps would regularly score in the 13's or 14's in some captions. Using the Drum caption as an example, those 12th place corps are regularly scoring up in the 17's. As a result, not only has the skill caption's relevance to overall score been dramatically decreased, the value of ordinals have been reduced as well with an average of about .2 available per slot after the lowest tier scores are assigned.

Yet, what would you have the judges do? Would you have 'em drop the lowest scores back down to the the 13's to allot greater scoring space between placement? You think folks gets ###### over scores now, just wait 'til a judge spaces corps out by over a point based on a subjective execution scoring... they'll have the Russian judge's head!

I see folks complain left and right on here about specific judges. It ain't the judges, it's the sheets. The sheets have minimized execution's ability to produce large scoring divergence, smoothed out and decreased individual skill section's impact on overall scoring/placement, and established book & design as relevance #1, 2, and 3. Not a chance I'd want to wear any of the judges shoes given the system!

[Kyle]

Tito, my comment wasn't directed towards you so much as the others throughout the forum here who proclaim with great conviction that Corps A definitively had better execution on music and drill and work with higher demand than Corps B, but was placed several spots lower because the judges don't have any idea what they're looking for.

Judging drum corps is "subjective" in some sense, in that the judges do swing their scores around gut reactions in some instances. There is no black and white rule book for scoring in terms of granting points. A corps member does not cross home plate and score a run. You're closer in comparing scoring to that of figure skating (or synchronized swimming, or gymnastics, etc.), in that there isn't any sort of guideline by which points are awarded or deducted (with the exception of penalties).

I understand your point when you discuss that it doesn't seem likely that within a night's time an "underdog" corps will be seen defeating the top groups. With a game like baseball, things like luck and weather and a whole bunch of variables can play a big role in who comes out on top; sometimes the most talented team fails to execute. Drum corps is different for a number of reasons:

- The number of people. When you have a baseball team, there are 9 players on the field. If one person makes a minor mistake, it can cost the team several runs, and subsequently the game. With drum corps, you have 150 people on the field. While personal responsibility is still important, one person making a minior mistake will not be as glaringly obvious.

- The nature of the activity. In baseball, the main goal is not to improve throughout the course of the season. They start out hoping to win every game from March until September. They can trade and cut and sign players and staff mid-season, they compete against one group rather than 5 every night, and generally speaking the emphasis is put on beating each team sequentially, rather than improving their own team every night. Similarly, when you compare it to other "subjective" sports like figure skating, the judging system is similar but the competitive nature is not. With figure skating, there is no "season." Skaters train individually in order to compete at major events. If drum corps was this way, DCI would be useless, other than to sanction major events.

- The way the athletes train. When you play baseball, you have spring training and daily practices and usually games in the evening, very similar to the way drum corps rehearse. The difference is that you practice many different pieces of the puzzle that is baseball, i.e. double play execution, bunt fielding, pitching, batting, etc. Each team that you face has a different strategy, so your own strategy must change on a nightly basis. If you're facing a team with a lot of power hitters, your pitching and fielding will be different than if you're facing a team with a lot of weak hitters. If the team has a lot of left handed batters, you're going to put a left handed pitcher on the mound, etc. If the Cardinals beat the Pirates, it's because the Cardinal pitcher struck out a lot of batters, the Cardinals' second baseman turned more double plays, and the outfielder robbed the Pirates of a home run.With drum corps, your strategy doesn't change on a nightly basis. The Cadets can't do anything to Crown in order to beat them. If Cadets win, it is simply because they played and marched the most difficult material while committing the least amount of mistakes.

There are many others, but it's late, so I'll keep my thoughts down to this to ensure they're coherent.