What issues have caused controversy in drumlines?

[supersop]

This coming from a brass player ........

1. Mylar was about stroking - Kevlar is about rebound.

Mylar lines that played clean had hands of Gods. Kevlar players end up with Carpal Tunnel.

2. Tuning.

Top 2 bass being cranked was pretty much started with Suncoast Sound in 1985 and further developed by Cadets in 1989 with their stellar top bass who would often play the snare book (which made it pop). I agree the harmonic tuning of basses is way too high. I do prefer a 1 1/2 to 2 octave tuning method for basses ... and I agree that Tenors should be in a tenor range. This leads me to the next point.

3. Melodic scoring.

It's gone. This was widely used in the 80's and experimented with in the 2 or 3 years prior to the tick system going out. I really miss it. It's not often that the tenors are matched with the alto voice in the hornline and the drums being used to play melodically. Same said for the low brass and basses and the snares with soprano voice. I know it is used from time to time but the total approach of scoring the percussion book to match the brass book no longer exists.

4. Rudimental playing VS. Orchestral nuance support

This really took place when the field judges of the 80's and early 90's were pushed out and replaced with classically trained percussionists. Of course, the drum lines of today play a ton of notes with lightening fast hands ...... but how musical is it really and do the judges really know how to judge it? Beyond that, how many judges can pick out a rudiment at 180+ bpm and call out the tick on the fly during a show.... (with specificity and accurate knowledge of what was actually played)? Pretty much 1 that I've seen and heard on a judges tape. This was the norm when I marched. Drum judges knew how to play and knew their rudiments, rational combination's of rudiments, when they were played and how well they were played and could call out the exact note being played in real time and who ticked and how. Now the corps get generalized statements about, nice expression, watch the release of the roll, check the 3rd double stop for a weak left hand ............ I mean ..... where's the knowledge from the DCI judges? This heavily shifted the way arrangers wrote their books. Float in the 80's was THE premier arranger for battery and left at the end of the rudimental era in drumming. To me, it's pretty sad.

I would rather see truly great rudimental hands in a line on heads that won't break their wrists. I would also like to hear more melodic writing while still knowing when to ram it out in appropriate spots. Make the tuning logical so you have a Sop, Tenor, Bass sound in the battery. You can do so much more with the writing when the drums are tuned properly and used in a choral voice structure. I'm not going to get into pits other than suggest that amping should have a db limit ... it's gotten out of hand.

So says the brass player.........

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

Pretty good analysis from a brass player.

Really, Garfield and Hannum started the change in battery approach beginning in 83 and probably completed by 85. If you listen to another top line of the era, say 83 Bridgemen, you will hear the battery playing practically the entire show. If you contrast that to Garfield's more orchestral approach, and limited playing-well the change is very clear. There was a lot of grumbling back then b/c of how little Garfield actually played-in 83 especially.

By the mid-80s everyone was cranking everything-I think this was a bit of natural stylistic change. The 70s era lines had a lower pitched, more muscular sound. By the mid-80s, everyone was cranking-I think it was mainly to get better articulartion, but also a kind of reaction to the popular style of the 1970s. Tenors in particular, you can really hear the voices rising in pitch from about 79-85. In the late 70s, triples with 12,14,16 were pretty popular-that's the sizes that I first played on and were used in FInleyville from about 78. By 83, however, almost everyone had 'baby' quads (8,10,12 & 14). So the pitch kind of automatically rose. Plus since the smaller drums weren't as loud as the larger triples, i think cranking them helped them cut more b/c of pitch. I think alot of these developments doomed the melodic form of tenor voicing.

Oh, I agree about the bds too. Just too #### high. If listen to the Marine Corps, they have a older bd sound and it's pretty cool. Nice bottom end.

Oh, and a quick comment on the current brass instruments. I understand the financial reasons for switching to bflat, but it sounds like someone turned the volume off.

This coming from a brass player ........

1. Mylar was about stroking - Kevlar is about rebound.

Mylar lines that played clean had hands of Gods. Kevlar players end up with Carpal Tunnel.

2. Tuning.

Top 2 bass being cranked was pretty much started with Suncoast Sound in 1985 and further developed by Cadets in 1989 with their stellar top bass who would often play the snare book (which made it pop). I agree the harmonic tuning of basses is way too high. I do prefer a 1 1/2 to 2 octave tuning method for basses ... and I agree that Tenors should be in a tenor range. This leads me to the next point.

3. Melodic scoring.

It's gone. This was widely used in the 80's and experimented with in the 2 or 3 years prior to the tick system going out. I really miss it. It's not often that the tenors are matched with the alto voice in the hornline and the drums being used to play melodically. Same said for the low brass and basses and the snares with soprano voice. I know it is used from time to time but the total approach of scoring the percussion book to match the brass book no longer exists.

4. Rudimental playing VS. Orchestral nuance support

This really took place when the field judges of the 80's and early 90's were pushed out and replaced with classically trained percussionists. Of course, the drum lines of today play a ton of notes with lightening fast hands ...... but how musical is it really and do the judges really know how to judge it? Beyond that, how many judges can pick out a rudiment at 180+ bpm and call out the tick on the fly during a show.... (with specificity and accurate knowledge of what was actually played)? Pretty much 1 that I've seen and heard on a judges tape. This was the norm when I marched. Drum judges knew how to play and knew their rudiments, rational combination's of rudiments, when they were played and how well they were played and could call out the exact note being played in real time and who ticked and how. Now the corps get generalized statements about, nice expression, watch the release of the roll, check the 3rd double stop for a weak left hand ............ I mean ..... where's the knowledge from the DCI judges? This heavily shifted the way arrangers wrote their books. Float in the 80's was THE premier arranger for battery and left at the end of the rudimental era in drumming. To me, it's pretty sad.

I would rather see truly great rudimental hands in a line on heads that won't break their wrists. I would also like to hear more melodic writing while still knowing when to ram it out in appropriate spots. Make the tuning logical so you have a Sop, Tenor, Bass sound in the battery. You can do so much more with the writing when the drums are tuned properly and used in a choral voice structure. I'm not going to get into pits other than suggest that amping should have a db limit ... it's gotten out of hand.

So says the brass player.........

[WestCoaster]

Yeah yeah yeah.

We get it.

And CD's sound better than Ipods.

But Tapes sounded better than CDs

But 8-tracks sounded better than tapes

but records sounded better than tapes

and football players were tougher because of leather helmets.

I havent been sold any bill of goods.

I like the sound. Nobody "fooled" me into liking it.

Wow, really? That's your argument?

Kevlar heads sound like NOTHING else in the world of percussion, past OR present. Completely outside the ensemble, and gross sounding.

You really *like* the sound? That puzzles me. Everyone I know simply tolerates the sound for conveniences sake.

[WestCoaster]

While I like kevlar's durability, it's dreadful to play on (like concrete) and does not project very well. Not to mention that snare drums have essentially doubled in weight due to the need for extreme hardware for the kevlar....

There's that, too.

Playing on a Kevlar head is nasty, no give and no feeling to it at all (really, worse than playing on the kitchen table honestly). That plus it seems dangerous on the face of it...when you've got unbreakable heads and unbreakable drums, the only thing left to give is the DRUMMER. Yikes.

[wbargeron]

This appears to be shaping up into a very interesting post.

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

QUOTE (TastyWaves @ Aug 24 2009, 11:11 AM)

Yeah yeah yeah.

We get it.

And CD's sound better than Ipods.

But Tapes sounded better than CDs

But 8-tracks sounded better than tapes

but records sounded better than tapes

and football players were tougher because of leather helmets.

I havent been sold any bill of goods.

I like the sound. Nobody "fooled" me into liking it.

Wow, really? That's your argument?

Kevlar heads sound like NOTHING else in the world of percussion, past OR present. Completely outside the ensemble, and gross sounding.

You really *like* the sound? That puzzles me. Everyone I know simply tolerates the sound for conveniences sake.

I think alot of the younger folks like the sound because really that's all they know through no fault of their own. Kevlar has been around for along time now. When I was in college, we had a contract to endorse one of the first kevlar type prototypes-canasonic heads. We had some old slingerland tdrs and old (circa 80) Pearl trips. The kevlar was blowing the drums to hell and back as everyone discovered back in the late 80s, the drums weren't up to the kevlar.

[WestCoaster]

I think alot of the younger folks like the sound because really that's all they know through no fault of their own.

Very good point.

The thing they need to realize is that at one point drum corps drums sounded like, well, DRUMS.

Compare the sound of a kevlar line to ANY other usage of the snare drum in the musical world, rock, jazz, classical; you name it, and it doesn't sound remotely like ANY of them. And not in a good way.

Kevlar has been around for along time now.

Thanks for reminding me of how old I am.

When I was in college, we had a contract to endorse one of the first kevlar type prototypes-canasonic heads. We had some old slingerland tdrs and old (circa 80) Pearl trips. The kevlar was blowing the drums to hell and back as everyone discovered back in the late 80s, the drums weren't up to the kevlar.

Tell me about it. Those suckers are murder on drums. My first kevlar line gave the poor Yamaha guys a very stressful year, I'll bet they really regretted promising us free equipment! I think we went through 3 or maybe even 4 full sets of drums trying to make the things work (after the first set caved, they sent back new snares with a reinforcing piece of wood near the rim, those caved in so they sent out some other kind of reinforcement, it was not a cool situation).

Edited August 28, 2009 by WestCoaster

[MikeN]

Very good point.

The thing they need to realize is that at one point drum corps drums sounded like, well, DRUMS.

Compare the sound of a kevlar line to ANY other usage of the snare drum in the musical world, rock, jazz, classical; you name it, and it doesn't sound remotely like ANY of them. And not in a good way.

Actually, I think that the introduction of composite heads (hybrid, whatever) has actually made a marked change in drum tuning on the field for the better - there *is* a happy medium to be achieved.

Mike

[geneseo_bari_87]

Pretty good analysis from a brass player.

Really, Garfield and Hannum started the change in battery approach beginning in 83 and probably completed by 85. If you listen to another top line of the era, say 83 Bridgemen, you will hear the battery playing practically the entire show. If you contrast that to Garfield's more orchestral approach, and limited playing-well the change is very clear. There was a lot of grumbling back then b/c of how little Garfield actually played-in 83 especially.

By the mid-80s everyone was cranking everything-I think this was a bit of natural stylistic change. The 70s era lines had a lower pitched, more muscular sound. By the mid-80s, everyone was cranking-I think it was mainly to get better articulartion, but also a kind of reaction to the popular style of the 1970s. Tenors in particular, you can really hear the voices rising in pitch from about 79-85. In the late 70s, triples with 12,14,16 were pretty popular-that's the sizes that I first played on and were used in FInleyville from about 78. By 83, however, almost everyone had 'baby' quads (8,10,12 & 14). So the pitch kind of automatically rose. Plus since the smaller drums weren't as loud as the larger triples, i think cranking them helped them cut more b/c of pitch. I think alot of these developments doomed the melodic form of tenor voicing.

Oh, I agree about the bds too. Just too #### high. If listen to the Marine Corps, they have a older bd sound and it's pretty cool. Nice bottom end.

Oh, and a quick comment on the current brass instruments. I understand the financial reasons for switching to bflat, but it sounds like someone turned the volume off.

This brought back a great memory - Marion, OH, 1983. After watching Garfield from the sidelines, the shock and awe of watching their show was followed by the shock and awe of their drumline playing their cadence as they marched on the track in front of me. It wasn't so much the cadence, or even the drumline as a whole, but the #1 bass playing that thing like it was a snare. As I recall, their cadence had extended sections where the #1 bass was playing solo. An indelible image.

[TastyWaves]

Wow, really? That's your argument?

Kevlar heads sound like NOTHING else in the world of percussion, past OR present. Completely outside the ensemble, and gross sounding.

You really *like* the sound? That puzzles me. Everyone I know simply tolerates the sound for conveniences sake.

You dont know enough people then.

Im glad you like the civil war sound bro.

And no.. its not my argument because i am not arguing that one is better than the other.

I am simply stating what many 4th graders know which is that in the artistic world, you can like more than one thing. You can also prefer one thing over another and not have it come down to "right or wrong".

Im sorry your "Puzzled". I know these are really difficult and complicated formulas we are dealing with.