idontwan2know Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 not at all. however you were speaking of "safe shows" in terms of scoring, or so I thought. If i misread I apologize. What I'm saying is that while a "safe" show might be the best way to achieve a high score in Class A, there's a lot more that goes into the decision than simply what will win. Each corps situation is unique. I know at Sun Devils, a big part of the reason we've grown so fast and look to have a very high vet retention rate next year is because our members loved the show they performed this year. They bought into it right from the start and I've had many of them tell me that they wouldn't be here in the first place, much less coming back next year if we did some of the things that would likely make us much more successful competitively. Why it is that there is seemingly zero credit for demand or achievement in Class A judging is a whole other topic of discussion that I'm not going to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutnout Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. I don't think you will EVER find an instance of me commenting on scores or placements. As Smoothy would say, "scores schmores" OOPS..lol..sorry was meant for IDON...original poster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoothy Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 This is a great topic. We went through the same thing last season where we had an extremely demanding show and couldn't break into the top four because of it. This year we played much simpler music and won. I think the bottom line is execution and effect is what the scores are made of. If you don't execute because your demand is higher, you won't get the score. If you don't get the effect scores because your book is too simplistic, you won't get the score. It's the drum corps conundrum (conundrum corps?). If the answers were simple, the game wouldn't be as fun. I would rather play the challenging book to a demanding drill as well, but my motto is SCORES SHMORES, so I really am not the guy to tell a drum corps how to do their gig. Winning is fun, but the experience is what this whole thing is about. ...and besides only two corps get to win, so the odds are pretty steep. Good luck to all of you in your drum corps journeys. It is the best times of your lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutnout Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 What I'm saying is that while a "safe" show might be the best way to achieve a high score in Class A, there's a lot more that goes into the decision than simply what will win.Each corps situation is unique. I know at Sun Devils, a big part of the reason we've grown so fast and look to have a very high vet retention rate next year is because our members loved the show they performed this year. They bought into it right from the start and I've had many of them tell me that they wouldn't be here in the first place, much less coming back next year if we did some of the things that would likely make us much more successful competitively. Why it is that there is seemingly zero credit for demand or achievement in Class A judging is a whole other topic of discussion that I'm not going to get into. VISUAL VISUAL VISUAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontwan2know Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Well if this is what you consider success ( which is great ) then why whine about placement or scores.I saw SD and thought for a small corps had a great sound . I was very impressed Visually lacks alot and guard totally lacks in members, design, creativity. I think with a focus in that area may have put you in finals. As the other poster also said YOU DONT GET CREDIT FOR ATTEMPT. If you succeed at something harder then fine you should be way ahead BUT if they achieve with maybe a smater show and you dont with the risk you might take, Sorry no cigar With that said I do hope to see SD bigger and stronger in 2010 I have never whined about placements. We finished where we finished. I wouldn't change our approach to show design if you had told me beforehand where we would finish. As far as the guard goes, consider that the entire show was rewritten both drill and work three weeks before championships to address changes in personnel. They did a stellar job under the circumstances. Increasing the size of the guard and integrating them better into the show is a major area to work on next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 What I'm saying is that while a "safe" show might be the best way to achieve a high score in Class A, there's a lot more that goes into the decision than simply what will win.Each corps situation is unique. I know at Sun Devils, a big part of the reason we've grown so fast and look to have a very high vet retention rate next year is because our members loved the show they performed this year. They bought into it right from the start and I've had many of them tell me that they wouldn't be here in the first place, much less coming back next year if we did some of the things that would likely make us much more successful competitively. Why it is that there is seemingly zero credit for demand or achievement in Class A judging is a whole other topic of discussion that I'm not going to get into. a safe show isnt the best way to get a score Alan. a show with demand that can be performed well gets the score. if you have a safe show and you perform it well, you're looking at performer over the book numbers. my guess is demand is factored in...IF IT IS PERFORMED WELL. as i said i didnt see you guys. word on the street was good hornline, easy drill, small guard and eh drumline. add all that up if true....regardless of crowd reaction...then yeah, i can see a corps not getting the numbers they wanted. but if you want points just for demand sorry...derived achievement doesnt give you points just for trying. it rewards you for trying and succeeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontwan2know Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 a safe show isnt the best way to get a score Alan. a show with demand that can be performed well gets the score. if you have a safe show and you perform it well, you're looking at performer over the book numbers. my guess is demand is factored in...IF IT IS PERFORMED WELL. as i said i didnt see you guys. word on the street was good hornline, easy drill, small guard and eh drumline. add all that up if true....regardless of crowd reaction...then yeah, i can see a corps not getting the numbers they wanted. but if you want points just for demand sorry...derived achievement doesnt give you points just for trying. it rewards you for trying and succeeding. This is getting into a discussion about the Sun Devils specifically, which I didn't want to do. I am not complaining about our placement. I am talking about judging trends in general. It's so easy to say "there's no credit for the attempt" and act like that ends the debate. The question is HOW demand is weighted against execution. I think there is a distinct bias towards towards execution in Class A that is quite different than Open Class. The dial is so tilted towards execution as to preclude any serious demand unless you're so good that you can perform that demand cleaner than everybody else ala Vigilantes percussion. It's supposed to be a sliding scale where a more demanding show performed slightly dirtier will get equal credit with a slightly cleaner, but easier show. I didn't see any evidence of that balance in operation in the results from Class A this weekend. All I saw was a race to the bottom in demand being rewarded. Especially in percussion and visual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 This is getting into a discussion about the Sun Devils specifically, which I didn't want to do. I am not complaining about our placement. I am talking about judging trends in general.It's so easy to say "there's no credit for the attempt" and act like that ends the debate. The question is HOW demand is weighted against execution. I think there is a distinct bias towards towards execution in Class A that is quite different than Open Class. The dial is so tilted towards execution as to preclude any serious demand unless you're so good that you can perform that demand cleaner than everybody else ala Vigilantes percussion. It's supposed to be a sliding scale where a more demanding show performed slightly dirtier will get equal credit with a slightly cleaner, but easier show. I didn't see any evidence of that balance in operation in the results from Class A this weekend. All I saw was a race to the bottom in demand being rewarded. Especially in percussion and visual. And now it went from a specific post about SD upward and onward to the Class A Finalists. Let's just get off this part of the OP's post. Everyone in Class A was respectable and entertaining in their own rights. Who cares what the burgundy shirts thought????????? NOT I! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 IMO....demand is weighted against the performance if the performance is at the judges tolerance of quality of performance. we all know that can change a little from judge to judge...my tolerance of quality may differ slightly from yours. i dont think there is a bias in Class A at all tho. I do think performance at a higher level is encouraged, because class a's philosophy is towards growth...on the field and off the field as well. however i see some world class corps trying some really tough stuff...and not achieving it......and not getting the score either. so there's no bias towards either class, or else class a would get scores like open class in DCI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontwan2know Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I guess it's impossible to have this discussion without someone feeling that certain corps are being attacked, so I'll just keep my mouth shut. Again, just for the record, my thoughts on this matter have nothing to do with the Sun Devils or where they placed this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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