The Good Old Days weren't all that good

[esch]

"The first time i saw the Anaheim Kingsmen was at whitewater 1976. I had heard all of there recordings before then but never seen them. Now dont forget this is after 75 when they didnt go on tour and many thought the were going under. To my suprise they came around the corner at whitewater and i think it was one of the greatest sights i have ever seen. They werent the powerhouse they used to be but they were the Kingsmen. The following year i moved to Cali and joined the Kingsmen. 1977 was such a great experience we just missed finals to Garfield. To this year and time i believe if Garfield would have not sang amen at the end we would have beat them i might be but have allways had this gut feeling about it."

So many of my memories of the Kingsmen are like this.... when we (SC) went on tour one year we had heard that Anaheim had folded but then as we were heading down the path to a field somewwhere in Kansas or someplace we heard this rocking drum solo of Yellow Submarine.... we're all going "who the... is that?" and slowly the word got passed back through the corps that Anaheim had come back from the dead... and they were HOT! Then I had the same experience a few years later while sitting in the stands at a show and looking over at the section of the warm-up area visible between buildings and seeing what was CLEARLY a Kingsmen uniform slowly walking (with proper posture, of course) through the space.... a second check with the program confirmed that the Kingsmen were not scheduled to perform (everyone knew they had, again, folded)... you can only imagine the reaction as the full corps came down the ramp to perform.....

[Puppet]

great players have gone through that corps and maybe shes one of the greatest But I dont believe that's the criteria for the HOF

You just stick to your guns. 'Cause I believe people gotta stand up for something - so you go.

[GUARDLING]

You just stick to your guns. 'Cause I believe people gotta stand up for something - so you go.

DCP always amazes...now you want to tell people how to run their corps from what their mission or beliefs are....No outsider has the right...... sorry

I believe alumni have chaged some things over the years. so a message from the outside I dont holds alot of weight nor should it....its their corps.But if it came from past members and THEY want criteria changed then thats another story. Not even saying you are wrong( or right ) BUT its their criteria for THEIR corps.

Edited January 3, 2012 by GUARDLING

[Puppet]

DCP always amazes...now you want to tell people how to run their corps from what their mission or beliefs are....No outsider has the right...... sorry

I believe alumni have chaged some things over the years. so a message from the outside I dont holds alot of weight nor should it....its their corps.But if it came from past members and THEY want criteria changed then thats another story. Not even saying you are wrong( or right ) BUT its their criteria for THEIR corps.

Please ... let's just nip this before it goes from full flower to hedgerow because it is the people who poston DCP who amaze me. I was not being facetious when I said you should stick to your guns. I was not (as I sometimes can be) being jocular or in any way deliberately inappropriate (as I also sometimes am) and please pardon the parenthetical prepositional ending but what I was doing was defending your defense of a corps you went out of your way - and somewhat obtusely off-topic - to let us know from your initial post how much you love and respect. I respect that. I drop as much love about my own past on these pages to hope that I do not become too droll when I do. I mentioned Barbara to in some way bring the Garfield reference back on topic as to how The Good Old Days [that] Weren't All That Good were sometimes very good. So continue to stand up, just don't get so up tight that your message gets garbled with dropped punctuation and unnecessary capitalization.

Oh ... and one would think you would be somewhat proud of the fact that some outsiders have enough respect for one of your own to voice their feelings about her. She was a standout to me when I couldn't have cared less about Drum Corps at all.

That's right for about two decades ('73 to '90) I didn't care a wit for Drum Corps.

That said, from what I have read and heard from other horn players, I was not, and am not alone about my respect for a great horn player.

I know, I just can't shut up once I get started ... so I'll stop.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Puppet

[GUARDLING]

Please ... let's just nip this before it goes from full flower to hedgerow because it is the people who poston DCP who amaze me. I was not being facetious when I said you should stick to your guns. I was not (as I sometimes can be) being jocular or in any way deliberately inappropriate (as I also sometimes am) and please pardon the parenthetical prepositional ending but what I was doing was defending your defense of a corps you went out of your way - and somewhat obtusely off-topic - to let us know from your initial post how much you love and respect. I respect that. I drop as much love about my own past on these pages to hope that I do not become too droll when I do. I mentioned Barbara to in some way bring the Garfield reference back on topic as to how The Good Old Days [that] Weren't All That Good were sometimes very good. So continue to stand up, just don't get so up tight that your message gets garbled with dropped punctuation and unnecessary capitalization.

Oh ... and one would think you would be somewhat proud of the fact that some outsiders have enough respect for one of your own to voice their feelings about her. She was a standout to me when I couldn't have cared less about Drum Corps at all.

That's right for about two decades ('73 to '90) I didn't care a wit for Drum Corps.

That said, from what I have read and heard from other horn players, I was not, and am not alone about my respect for a great horn player.

I know, I just can't shut up once I get started ... so I'll stop.

i never railroaded the topic in the 1st place so as you say back on topic...they were great old days but not without selective memory...like in most things when one reflects back. I probably misread your posting also. Sorry about that.

Edited January 4, 2012 by GUARDLING

[Navillus WP]

..... moving right along....

In the so-called "good old days" ACCOUNTABILITY OF JUDGING was sometimes an issue:

There was a time when judges' score sheets were only on mimeographed paper (no copies). "Runners" would carry them from each judge to the tabulator, and the tabulator would take all the originals and tabulate ("arrange information in table of columns and rows") which was then the basis of determining the outcome of the judging. There were some shows that - after the scores were announced - a statistical error was found that may/may not have affected the outcome. Sometimes it was because of mis-read handwriting of the judge's numbers. More ominously, there were more than a few accusations that the numbers were altered sometime after the judges turned them over to the runners to bring them to the tabulator. In at least one National Championship in the early 70's, a show coordinator (years later) admitted that he altered some numbers (downward) because he was upset by the performance of one nationally-ranked contending corps.

Other issues included judges allowing personal opinions to enter into assessing a scores: GE judges who did not like "costumed figures" or dancing members of the colorguard, drum judges who did not like double snares (one drum w/ upper and lower wire snares) or tightened drumheads... on and on.

Regional bias of regional judges associations was always the subject of debate.

There were sometimes (but not always) different interpretation of some rules for different organizations, such as American Legion, CYO, and VFW. "Vocalization" for example, and standards for corps inspections (or no inspections).

Edited January 4, 2012 by Navillus WP

[lindap]

..... moving right along....

In the so-called "good old days" ACCOUNTABILITY OF JUDGING was sometimes an issue:

There was a time when judges' score sheets were only on mimeographed paper (no copies). "Runners" would carry them from each judge to the tabulator, and the tabulator would take all the originals and tabulate ("arrange information in table of columns and rows") which was then the basis of determining the outcome of the judging. There were some shows that - after the scores were announced - a statistical error was found that may/may not have affected the outcome. Sometimes it was because of mis-read handwriting of the judge's numbers. More ominously, there were more than a few accusations that the numbers were altered sometime after the judges turned them over to the runners to bring them to the tabulator. In at least one National Championship in the early 70's, a show coordinator (years later) admitted that he altered some numbers (downward) because he was upset by the performance of one nationally-ranked contending corps.

Other issues included judges allowing personal opinions to enter into assessing a scores: GE judges who did not like "costumed figures" or dancing members of the colorguard, drum judges who did not like double snares (one drum w/ upper and lower wire snares) or tightened drumheads... on and on.

Regional bias of regional judges associations was always the subject of debate.

There were sometimes (but not always) different interpretation of some rules for different organizations, such as American Legion, CYO, and VFW. "Vocalization" for example, and standards for corps inspections (or no inspections).

During my eligible years, I marched 68-76 (4 years as DM; learning the rules was a given and rather interesting), taught guard 71-76 (hired by corps directors and went to lots of meetings where I learned alot) and was a judge-in-training 1976 (many judges were instructors but in 76 I was a marching member-instructor-judge ... I kinda multitasked). No worries; I didn't judge you (which is a good thing 'cause I judge what I see at that moment) however, I was in the audience giving you a standing ovation at Shriner's 70 or 71 and I was a runner :) You're OK by me.

edit: I have one selective memory. When we toured early 70's I ordered toast and jam for breakfast, soup of the day for lunch, however, to this day I rarely have fast food for dinner;)

Edited January 5, 2012 by lindap

[Navillus WP]

I was in the audience giving you a standing ovation at Shriner's 70 or 71 and I was a runner :) You're OK by me.

Thanks, Linda. Truth be told, the Shriners International shows in which I participated (including 1970 and '71) remain my all-time "favourite" venues. The crowds were very appreciative, the folks of Greater Toronto and Hamilton area were warm and genuine, and the shows were impeccably organized and conducted.

However, to this day, members of Blue Rock believe the judges robbed them of the 1971 title by means of a "mysterious" 2.0 point color guard penalty. (They subsequently received the same penalty at the National Dream competition in New Jersey.)

[Piper]

I knew one kid who was in a corps that wore wool cadet jackets. His mom decided to do him a "favor" and washed it for him. When it came out it was so small a midget couldn't fit into it.

[Tim K]

It’s interesting, bad judging always seems to be a bone of contention. I know in the heyday of Boston’s CYO days, some questioned how St. William’s of Dorchester could have won the title 19 years in a row and later, how Hudson CYO seemed to win. While St. Williams’s did have some formidable competition, people often questioned how skilled and powerful groups such as St. Ann Neponset and St. Agnes in Arlington placed behind them and the argument was always that St. William’s and Hudson were “clean.” I know similar complaints were voiced by drum corps and drill teams. I also remember a few times some bands, drum corps and drill teams were allowed do overs. One time a score sheet got lost, another time the timing and penalty judge misfired. I’m sure it was a “coincidence” the unit did much better second time around. This took place when judging was supposed to be more objective. Of course things could get rather subjective when it came to penalties, and all kinds of as IC Reveries who later became the early 27^th Lancers know all too well.

Now the judging is more subjective, and bias is still claimed. To give the benefit of the doubt, judging may not be biased as some claim, but many corps certainly know how to please the judges. Since people are involved, judging will probably never be perfect.

As far as robbed is concerned, I’ve always thought Northeast corps seemed to be better than judges placed them. That may be due to local pride but I always found it odd that BAC could defeat DCI finalists prior to the DCI prelims but had bad shows at DCI. North Star often fared better until finals. Garfield was not always consistent in the late 70’s, but in 78 and 79 it did seem they had a fate similar to BAC. Don’t get me started about 27^th and bad judging, just refer to some of the threads about DCI in 1980 and I think you could argue 1981. Now I’m not saying that the Northeast did not have questionable judging from time to time. In 1979 North Star won CYO Nationals, defeating 27^th, Bridgemen, and Madison. Did North Star play to the home crowd, certainly, but were they tenth better than Madison? I’m not so sure though I’m willing to bet I was happy the honors went a local corps.