Blackstar

Why Academy, Colts, etc can't win next year

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Saw this and thought it was vaguely interesting.

While the premise of the thread is meant to make a point about interest, change, and getting more excitement. . . one of the first responses was quite accurate in the analogy:

Blue Devils = New York Yankees

Colts = Toronto Blue Jays

The Blue Devils do not apologize for attempting to win every single year. It is the expectation of the members, the staff and the organization that the Blue Devils will compete for the national championship every year. They do not shrink from competition, but define themselves through competition.

The Colts are apparently happy being a mid-level corps that occasionally is dangerous for finals. Their philosophy is one of emphasizing "nurturing environment" rather than competition. Most in the organization seem to be happy with their role in DCI, as they've not made any significant noise in the activity in some time.

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I haven't read all of the replies, but has anyone yet mentioned that drum corps differs from the listed sports in one important regard?

In all of those sports, you have to be strong, quick, agile, and able to think on your feet. You have to respond to the competition in the moment in order to get your points.

In drum corps, you have to be strong, quick, agile, and able to think on your feet. However, you can't respond to the competition in the moment, at least not until we implement the full-corps wireless neural network circa 2019, allowing the corps members to improvise a rewrite (in real time!) in response to the shows that are occurring at all 11 different locations on finals night. Then, the best corps of the night will win, depending upon both their collective design skills and ability to execute the new material flawlessly. Think of it as 150 people collectively taking over the role of quarterback and receiver, except that in football you only play ONE other team.

And if THAT'S not impressive, think of how much crap the judges will take after a long night (15 minutes of judging 12 shows simultaneously!)

So you might say that whole "design" and "learning time" thing, coupled with the number of experienced members each respective corps attracts, have a pretty big effect on placements over the course of a season. And maybe, when there is a doubt in a judges mind, there's a little to be said for competitive inertia.

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Nick,

From a Garfield alum who played in that baritone line 20 years before you, Thank You. Thank you for reaffirming that the reason current members choose to go to places like Cadets, BD and Cavaliers is STILL because they are drawn to the corps' respective image/approach and driven to take the opportunity to do ANYTHING to perform at that level. That is what it was all about for the 43 of us who won the three-peat and I am so happy to hear that it was true for you and others more recently. You are a true example of a Cadet.

FHNSAB,

Bill Hawkes

Garfield Cadets baritone, 1983, 1984, 1985

Bill - I know it's not so much about the ring, but congratulations on being apart

of the Cadets that three-peated. Those are among my favorite shows. And the

1985 show was about 20 years ahead of it's time.

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One thing you have to consider is that not all corps have the same goals in order to determine success. While many tend to correlate winning with success others determine it by other means or measures. I know the Colts would be the first to tell you "They will never win DCI"..... But they consider themselves successful regardless and do not consider the need to win it all to be a determining factor of their success. Some people have a problem with accepting or understanding this approach.

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One thing you have to consider is that not all corps have the same goals in order to determine success. While many tend to correlate winning with success others determine it by other means or measures. I know the Colts would be the first to tell you "They will never win DCI"..... But they consider themselves successful regardless and do not consider the need to win it all to be a determining factor of their success. Some people have a problem with accepting or understanding this approach.

thought it needed to be stated again...

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I haven't read all of the replies, but has anyone yet mentioned that drum corps differs from the listed sports in one important regard?

In all of those sports, you have to be strong, quick, agile, and able to think on your feet. You have to respond to the competition in the moment in order to get your points.

In drum corps, you have to be strong, quick, agile, and able to think on your feet. However, you can't respond to the competition in the moment, at least not until we implement the full-corps wireless neural network circa 2019, allowing the corps members to improvise a rewrite (in real time!) in response to the shows that are occurring at all 11 different locations on finals night. Then, the best corps of the night will win, depending upon both their collective design skills and ability to execute the new material flawlessly. Think of it as 150 people collectively taking over the role of quarterback and receiver, except that in football you only play ONE other team.

And if THAT'S not impressive, think of how much crap the judges will take after a long night (15 minutes of judging 12 shows simultaneously!)

So you might say that whole "design" and "learning time" thing, coupled with the number of experienced members each respective corps attracts, have a pretty big effect on placements over the course of a season. And maybe, when there is a doubt in a judges mind, there's a little to be said for competitive inertia.

It was brought up...and mostly ignored :grouphug:

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I'm wondering why as some people have said that you have to prove yourself over the years. They can't come out one year and win. Why couldn't a corps go from 18 to first....oh because it's never been done. God forbid someone outside the current elite wins big. Why does thee have to be history to be a winner. I'm sure there is some high scvhool drill designer just as good as some of the top ones in DCI like there are other instructors. But because they haven't paid thier dues thier not going to get the scores.

Another problem is that I see people with several corps listed on there sig. Usually it goes something like this, Citation 89-90 Jazz 91-92 Boston Crusaders 93-95 etc. (and for the love of GOD I'm only using these corps as an example) Why couldn't someone who gets better marching with Surf stay there and make them better instead of going to Cadets or some other top 12 corps. I kow they want to win. Immediate satisfaction. When I marched Crossmen I knew we wouldn't win but even if I could have I wouldn't wanted to march in another corps. If I had my druthers I wanted my kids to march either Surf or Raiders because I liked what they were doing. My son definitely could have marched anywhere (not saying that because I'm his father but because he was that good)

We talk about "my corps is a family" but I can't and won't leave my family' I joined a fire company that has good and bad times but I'm not going to the nieghboring company who is doing better. How good would the Raiders, Surf, Citations, any of a hundred smaller corps be if members stayed around longer.

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I'm wondering why as some people have said that you have to prove yourself over the years. They can't come out one year and win. Why couldn't a corps go from 18 to first....oh because it's never been done. God forbid someone outside the current elite wins big. Why does thee have to be history to be a winner. I'm sure there is some high scvhool drill designer just as good as some of the top ones in DCI like there are other instructors. But because they haven't paid thier dues thier not going to get the scores.

Another problem is that I see people with several corps listed on there sig. Usually it goes something like this, Citation 89-90 Jazz 91-92 Boston Crusaders 93-95 etc. (and for the love of GOD I'm only using these corps as an example) Why couldn't someone who gets better marching with Surf stay there and make them better instead of going to Cadets or some other top 12 corps. I kow they want to win. Immediate satisfaction. When I marched Crossmen I knew we wouldn't win but even if I could have I wouldn't wanted to march in another corps. If I had my druthers I wanted my kids to march either Surf or Raiders because I liked what they were doing. My son definitely could have marched anywhere (not saying that because I'm his father but because he was that good)

We talk about "my corps is a family" but I can't and won't leave my family' I joined a fire company that has good and bad times but I'm not going to the nieghboring company who is doing better. How good would the Raiders, Surf, Citations, any of a hundred smaller corps be if members stayed around longer.

Just don't use the term ring chasers. People get offended at the truth. People want satisfaction NOW.

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Just don't use the term ring chasers. People get offended at the truth. People want satisfaction NOW.

So... you completely sidestep my post that debating this point, and then bring it up AGAIN. Haha...wow, slick move. As far as being offended (again assuming this is at least partially about me since I was the only one who really argued with your previous 'ring chaser' comments), what would i have to be defensive about? You see my signature - I marched in one place. Im not going to reitterate my entire argument to this, but the fact is people all want different things. PLENTY of people march with a corps and stick with it, and plenty of others dont...but go ahead and keep generalizing...

As far as a 15th place corps not being able to win the next year, well sure they can!!....they just havent. If you think that's wrong, then feel free to tell us which non finalist corps from one year deserved the gold (or silver or bronze for that matter) the next year, but was unfairly denied, and I will be happy to discuss it with you. I asked a similar question last week, but for some reason nobody responded :grouphug:

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I'm wondering why as some people have said that you have to prove yourself over the years. They can't come out one year and win. Why couldn't a corps go from 18 to first....oh because it's never been done. God forbid someone outside the current elite wins big. Why does thee have to be history to be a winner. I'm sure there is some high scvhool drill designer just as good as some of the top ones in DCI like there are other instructors. But because they haven't paid thier dues thier not going to get the scores.

Another problem is that I see people with several corps listed on there sig. Usually it goes something like this, Citation 89-90 Jazz 91-92 Boston Crusaders 93-95 etc. (and for the love of GOD I'm only using these corps as an example) Why couldn't someone who gets better marching with Surf stay there and make them better instead of going to Cadets or some other top 12 corps. I kow they want to win. Immediate satisfaction. When I marched Crossmen I knew we wouldn't win but even if I could have I wouldn't wanted to march in another corps. If I had my druthers I wanted my kids to march either Surf or Raiders because I liked what they were doing. My son definitely could have marched anywhere (not saying that because I'm his father but because he was that good)

We talk about "my corps is a family" but I can't and won't leave my family' I joined a fire company that has good and bad times but I'm not going to the nieghboring company who is doing better. How good would the Raiders, Surf, Citations, any of a hundred smaller corps be if members stayed around longer.

Because in the end this is a compettitive activity, and the majority of it's participants thrive on that and want to be a part of the best. There are also a finite number of years someone can march. If someone has given 3 years to corps X that hasn't improved in the rankings or become more compettitive, they should not feel bad about wanting to march in a corps that competes at a different level and offers a different experience. There is no corps out there that can promise a 15 year old rookie member that if they stick with them the corps will achieve X goal by the time they age out. There are numerous factors that impact a corps ability to move up in the ranks, and member retention is only one of them. Did Blue Stars retain every eligible vet over the last 7 years to move from Open Class to two consecutive 8th place finishes in World Class? Of course not, the idea is absurd, and in retrospect while retention was certainly good one can point to numerous other factors that have had a more significant impact on their success.

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