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Why Academy, Colts, etc can't win next year


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I'm wondering why as some people have said that you have to prove yourself over the years. They can't come out one year and win. Why couldn't a corps go from 18 to first....oh because it's never been done. God forbid someone outside the current elite wins big. Why does thee have to be history to be a winner. I'm sure there is some high scvhool drill designer just as good as some of the top ones in DCI like there are other instructors. But because they haven't paid thier dues thier not going to get the scores.

I don't know that anyone is actually saying that you have to "pay your dues" (whatever that means) in order to be allowed to rub elbows with the big dogs. What most have stated in one way or another is that it would be difficult, for numerous and varied reasons, for a group to make the kind of progress required to turn a lower tier world class corps into a championship caliber group over the course of a single winter.

Fred O.

Edited by drumno5
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My use of the term ring chasers is not meant to defy Euphi "I marched Cadets" tone etc, it is a broad generalization of people who can't hack making a corps good by retention/. It is about the me crowd who want instant recognition and glory built on the backs of others. The chasers of being in a top corps instead of relying on their talent to make the corps good by staying and being leaders. Its too easy to chase dreams, but hard work to stay and play.

Great drum corps are not built from the bottom up, they're built from the top down. If you have lesser quality management/design/instruction, no amount of retention is going to make them great. If a talented/motivated kid spends a couple years in a 9th or 12th or 15th place corps and feels that he/she's gained all they can from it and want to move on, I don't see a problem.

I only ever marched in one corps and we were never a contender. That was my choice. If someone else has different goals they should pursue them. Kids march for their own enjoyment. This idea that they owe something to the first corps they join is antiquated thinking.

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I'm wondering why as some people have said that you have to prove yourself over the years. They can't come out one year and win. Why couldn't a corps go from 18 to first....oh because it's never been done. God forbid someone outside the current elite wins big. Why does thee have to be history to be a winner. I'm sure there is some high scvhool drill designer just as good as some of the top ones in DCI like there are other instructors. But because they haven't paid thier dues thier not going to get the scores.

In theory, they could. It's not very realistic, given all the pieces that have to come together to make a successful drum corps happen, to think that anyone ever could. Star probably came closest. They turned lots of heads with how quickly they became a player. Even with all they had going for them, I don't hear anyone saying they should have won before they did.

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My use of the term ring chasers is not meant to defy Euphi "I marched Cadets" tone etc, it is a broad generalization of people who can't hack making a corps good by retention/. It is about the me crowd who want instant recognition and glory built on the backs of others. The chasers of being in a top corps instead of relying on their talent to make the corps good by staying and being leaders. Its too easy to chase dreams, but hard work to stay and play. And no I am not saying that marching in Cadets or any other top corps is easy. It is just easier to attain the "glory" that comes form doing so. Look at peoples signatures as was stated earlier, two years here, but my screenname is --- insert top 5 corps here---. I personally know of someone who marched nine corps in nine years just to see the difference each one gave him. That I don't believe is ring chasing, but to march Corps B for two years and then jump to a top 5 corps for your final year, is a chaser. It isn't all about you mr. Euph guy, hence my nonresponse prior. Someone made a very legit argument for staying and building, I just cautioned him about people that feel bad about their esteem and jump ship to attain it back. Thats all. Don't take it so personally. If you can verify to me that NOBODY has ever gone to a corps for a ring, I can verify that you are wrong as my roommate in 82 told me directly. " I am going to Garfield next year. They are going to win it and I am going to be part of it. He marched 83-85 Cadets and won three rings. Ring chaser. He earned it, but he went where he thought his best chance was. So do a lot of people, so please tell me how that term ring chaser is wrong....... :thumbup:

Wow....way to miss the boat entirely. I never tried to make it about me personally, at least not until you brought it back up again. If you actually read my original post, you'll see that I talked about the other people that were in the corps with me, and why they marched there. I also spoke about why people came to the corps from other places...and gave a number of reasons why one might do that. If you had been paying attention at all, you would also have noticed that I said ring chasers DO exist, but....obviously you werent paying attention.

So, in summary, you entirely missed the point of what I was saying, and attributed various arguments to me that I never said. I wasnt talking about myself, and I never said that ring chasers do not exist, yet those are the two arguments you attacked in your post. There may be a picture of you in the dictionary...next to the word "strawman" (is that actually in the dictionary?? :doh: )

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With the right kind of backing any corp could put together a staff and corp that would win a championship. I believe you would need to maintain that staff for 5-6 years before you win a Championship!

After Star, Crown is the only one to rise to the challenge but only time will tell if they can maintain the staff and design to get there. It's tough keeping a team together without the financial backing.

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I hate to start the ring chaser argument, because that's not really what this is about, but lets go there for a second...and look at the reasons people march in a top corps. These are not in any particular order.

Reason 1 - grew up loving the corps. I dont even live in Jersey, but I have a lot of friends that have loved the cadets (in MD) since they were first introduced to band. My friends and family in jersey, mostly grew up with the corps, and there was never any other place TO march. My sister grew up watching me march....guess where she wound up??

Reason 2 - marketing- ties into reason 1, but how many people list their favorite show as cadets 2000, scv 89, BD 94, Cavies 04, etc?... When talking about new fans to the activity, the fact is that the first shows their friend or band director EVER shows them is going to probably be a famous championship show, or something close in notoriety. When people grow up with a certain corps, chances are they're going to march in that corps if at all possible.

Reason 3 - staff / connections. More people go to where the big names are. Call it a negative if you must, but with DCI being more about 'education' (which yes, is an arguable point), kids go where the famous staff is. They also go where they have connections...or where their boa staff teaches in some cases.....and this is HUGE for winterguard. Now, does the best staff winding up at the best corps sort of perpetuate this cycle...mostly, but look at madison this year for example. Before a single word was said about their show design or retro uniform, there was already HUGE hype about them, and all the kids that would be clamoring to audition there. Kids, especially college students often look for what kind of musical value they're going to get out of their experience, and go where the best teachers are.

Reason 4 - THEY WANT TO BE AMAZING. I dont know how else to put this, and I'm sorry if offends somebody, but if you have been marching in a smaller corps for a few years, only have 1 or 2 years left, and have spent years watching these top groups perform, you may want to be a part of that. Most of the people i know that came up to Cadets from another corps didnt do it to chase a ring, they did it to be a part of THE FREAKING CADETS!....I dont know, maybe I'm naive, but thats kind of a big deal to people. Im sure the same thing happens to people that go to BD or Cavies. Do those 3 have the best statistical chance of winning any given year?....sure, but they also have the best chance of being holy-crap-thats-so-insane-its-legendary each year as well. For someone that can only afford to march DCI 1 more time, there really is no other choice if you want that experience. Pretty much without exception, the reason people in 2005 in my corps were happy after finals wasn't because we got a piece of metal....they were happy because we were freaking AWESOME.

I dont know, maybe it sounds like the same thing to some, but to me, those reasons dont sound like ring chasing to me. Chasing history, tradition, excellence?....finding the best fit, going where you always dreamed?....yeah. Ring chasing?...not so much...

Oh, and I have more reasons, but i think this is enough for now

--------

disclaimer - I recognize that ring chasers DO exist, but by and large they are few in number, and not really indicative of the general mobility of the dci populace. Additionally, I recognize that there is also a TON of value to be had in other kinds of marching experiences, and am in no way trying to put those down. Thank you, and good night :thumbup:

Had to quote myself, just to reiterate that my argument was not about me, and not saying ring chasers do not exist. Oh, and how about a reason #5 - that lower placing corps WANT kids who got cut from top 5 corps. We have countless threads and pleas from people practically BEGGING kids who get cut from one corps to go to a lower placing corps to try out. JUST MARCH! is the battle cry....get the experience and you can always try again next year. If a Academy takes a kid in February that got cut by BD, should they be upset when that kid goes to age out at BD a year or 2 later? More importantly to the argument, is that person a ring chaser because he marched a few years in one place and then went to a top 5 corps to age out???...I think not. This speaks to the point that anyone who leaves their corps after a few years to go to a top 5 corps to age out is a ring chaser....this is obviously false. Could they be a ring chaser?....absolutely. Are they a ring chaser by virtue of that one action?...no.

Its really simple - someone is a ring chaser if....they are chasing a ring. There is no set of guidelines we can sit here or dcp to debate to determine it. If the desire to win DCI is the primary factor in the decision of where to march, then that person is a ring chaser. It has nothing to do with the corps they leave, or how many years they've been there. By extension, a person such as me could be a ring chaser, having only marched in one corps. If I went to the Cadets just because I wanted to win, then I would have been a ring chaser, regardless of having never marched elsewhere. If I had to choose the reason though, I would probably pick reason #2 from my list, plus some other factors....

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ARGGHHH.....

People move on, and it doesn't matter what the reasons are. You can't expect everyone to have the same feelings about your corps and loyalty as you do. Not everyone is happy, and not everyone will stay. It will NEVER CHANGE. We can theorize and speculate until the lights go out for good on this activity, and it will still not have changed. Ok?

The only thing a corps can do is work toward whatever definition of success they have developed through their mission statement, and just be who they are any given year. There is no magic bullet, no special formula for instant retention, no way to install a stay-put button in every single eligible marching member from year to year.

So, can we just get over it already? Kthxbye. :thumbup:

On another note, I don't think it's completely impossible for a corps to jump more than 6 spots in any given year, just highly improbable. But I'll keep watching and hoping!

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ARGGHHH.....

People move on, and it doesn't matter what the reasons are. You can't expect everyone to have the same feelings about your corps and loyalty as you do. Not everyone is happy, and not everyone will stay. It will NEVER CHANGE. We can theorize and speculate until the lights go out for good on this activity, and it will still not have changed. Ok?

The only thing a corps can do is work toward whatever definition of success they have developed through their mission statement, and just be who they are any given year. There is no magic bullet, no special formula for instant retention, no way to install a stay-put button in every single eligible marching member from year to year.

So, can we just get over it already? Kthxbye. :thumbup:

On another note, I don't think it's completely impossible for a corps to jump more than 6 spots in any given year, just highly improbable. But I'll keep watching and hoping!

Pretty much - Yeah :doh:

If Crown can go from out of finals to 2nd, Troopers go from non-existent to back in finals, and Blue Stars go from (not sure what their lowest placement was), to knocking on the door of the top echelon, then clearly there is a way to do it right. Don't want people to leave your corps?...then be amazing.

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Even then, people will leave. Not everyone wants the same thing (and it's OK).

Truth - people go from crown to cadets and vice versa, from cadets to bd, phantom to cadets, cavies to bd....and so on, for ALLLLL kinds of reasons... And i agree, thats fine. :thumbup:

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